fishbane

Expectations have changed a lot in the past 10-15 years. Saying 97kg just isn't performing? It's been better than 57kg, 61kg, 65kg, 70kg, 92kg, 125kg. Brooks at 97kg could be the move. The word is that he's moving up top 197lbs and either him or Starocci said a goal was for them be Olympic teammates at 74 and 86kg. 86 and 97kg could be more realistic than 74 and 86kg.

Not sure. I got that info from his hall of fame bio - https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/108. I suspect the third loss was some time in 1986 and he didn't make the team. Maybe someone who knows can chime in.

Not that many. You seem like a John Smith fan. Smith's international career spanned 1987-1992 inclusive. His international record in that time was 100-5 and 77-3 in domestic freestyle competition. Between 2011 and 2017 (1 more year than Smith's career) Burroughs was 152-5 overall in freestyle. He lost once in domestic competition - that 2017 WTT match to Dake 6-6 on criteria. He lost 4 times in international events, 4-4 to Marable at 2014 Yasar Doug, 2-9 to Tsargush at 2014 Worlds, 2-3 too Guduev at the 2016 Olympics, and 11-1 to Abdurakhmonov also at the 2016 Olympics.

2017 was not an Olympic year. There was a summer games in 2016 and there was supposed to be a summer games in 2021, but the COVID-19 pandemic pushed back the 2020 OTT and Olympics to 2021. The series with Dake in 2017 was a WTT. Burroughs won the series 2-1 and won worlds in 2017. As someone else pointed out Marsteller won one of three at Final X in 2022 as well.

I am pretty sure Smith dropped one in the 2 out of 3 with John Fisher for the 1992 Olympic spot as well. Possibly not prime Smith by then. His world/Olympic titles were 1987-1992 inclusive.

Smith dropped 1 in the best 2 of 3 to Lewis in 1988. This was the year after Smith won his first title. This is probably pretty analogous to when Snyder dropped 1 in a best 2 out of 3 to Varner at the 2016 Trials. In both cases a younger wrestler coming off their first world title dropped 1 match in a best 2 out of 3 against a US gold medalist from 4 years ago. Though Varner's win over Snyder was on Criteria. Varner and Snyder wrestled more than that series. I think Varner had unretired a year earlier and Snyder swept that series 2-0 and they wrestled at the finals of the US Open once also won by Snyder. Overall Snyder was 5-1 against Varner. Not sure how many times Smith and Lewis met. Burroughs American freestyle losses were 2007 to Teyon Ware at University Nationals, 2013 to Marable in an international tournament, 2017 to Dake in a best 2 of 3 at the WTT, 2019 to Imar in a best 2 of 3 at Final X, 2021 to David Taylor at a the Flo Event at 86kg, 2021 to Dake 0-2 in best 2 of 3 at the OTT, 2022 1x to Marsteller in a best 2 of 3 at Final x, and 2023 2x to Marsteller in a best 2 of 3 at Final X. In total there were 10 freestyle losses to Americans all in domestic tournaments except Marable. The "prime" losses are probably the 2013 loss to Marable, and the 2017 loss to Dake, both of those were on criteria (4-4 and 6-6) which wasn't really a thing when Smith, and Baumgartner were competing.

Boultakaev has a bronze medal from 2013 worlds.

I thought that was what you did to start all this. You are going in circles. So Sadulaev preventing Snyder from winning more golds is a valid point, but Taylor preventing Yazdani from winning more titles is an "if not for" that should not be considered? I can't say I see the distinction. In my mind you said that about Sadulaev to try and make the point that Snyder has the same # of titles, more overall medals, and against better competition than Taylor. I attempted to rebut that by pointing out how great Yazdani has been (4 titles, 9 medals, 3 weights, only 3 losses outside of Taylor, 3 wins over 2x champ Ghasempour, no losses outside of Taylor in nearly 8 years) and that if Taylor had lost to him with the frequency that Snyder has lost to Sadulaev he would be considered in the top 5 or so all-time like Sadulaev is. He is objectively one of the top 10 freestyle wrestlers of the past 25 years. Compare Snyder's career and Yazdani's. They are almost the same. Both started competing on the senior level in 2015 have won 1 OG, 1 OS, 3 WG, 3 WS, 1WB - very similar stuff. Yazdani has one more world silver at a non-Olympic weight (70kg) and Snyder has another world bronze at 97kg. The big difference is that Yazdani is more consistent and loses a lot less. 8 losses in 8 years and 5 of them to Taylor. Snyder has lost a lot more in that time and not just to Sadulaev. Taylor is Yazdani's Sadulaev.

Yes in 1992 he lost a match and still won gold

Supposing Snyder and Taylor retire today, but Sadulaev and Yazdani do not. Sadulaev doesn't win another world level title and Yazdani wins 4 more. 4x champ Snyder. 4x champ Taylor. 7x champ Sadulaev. 8x champ Yazdani, It's a crazy scenario that isn't going to happen, but I would probably view Taylor as the best 86kg of his generation where he overlapped with and dominated one of the greatest wrestlers of all time for a handful of years. Snyder's legacy probably wouldn't match that even with a few more bronze and silver medals.

Yeah they were saying that on FRL the other day. I don't know if that is true. Yazdani and Taylor might just be that good. Yazdani won the 2016 Olympics at 74kg he also has a world silver at 70kg. Ghasempour took out Cox twice en route to winning two titles at 92kg. He only has 3 career senior level losses all to Yazdani at 86kg. Taylor beat 79kg world champ Burroughs at the Flo event and Zahid only went up to 92kg after losing to Taylor where he won a world bronze. One might conclude that either Yazdani/Taylor would be the favorite at any weight from 74kg-92kg.

I'll give it a try. I think it has to do with Yazdani and how Taylor has consistently beaten him. Taylor is 5-1 vs Yazdani. If not for Taylor, Yazdani would likely have 7-8 World/Olympic titles, and his career would look at lot like Sadulaev's who has 7. Yazdani really has been similarly dominant to Sadulaev aside from Taylor. Yazdani has only lost 8 matches, 5 of which were to Taylor. Sadulav has 4 career loses 1 of which was Snyder. Taylor is also 1-0 vs Sharifov who is 2-0 against Snyder. Taylor has 4 world/olympic golds and whilst Snyder has the same number one of those was in 2022 where the top guy was likely not allowed in the tournament (Sadulaev). The Russian/Belarus ban hurts Taylor less than Dake or Snyder because the top guy at his weight (Yazdani) was unaffected. Some may consider Snyder's 4th title slightly less significant than any of Taylor's. I guess Sadulaev's performance at worlds this year, might debunk that line of thinking since he likely wouldn't have won worlds in 2022 wrestling like that. A similar line of thinking could ding Dake's titles. He won his first two at a non-Olympic weight and I think most consider World titles in non-Olympic weights less prestigious/difficult/significant than Olympic weights. And even his titles at 74kg came when the top 2 guys either skipped worlds because it was only a few months after the COVID-delayed Olympics or their countries were banned from competing. I'd probably rank titles at the last 5 world championships like this 2018=2019=2023>2021>2022 with Olympic weights being better than non-Olympic weights. For Taylor's weight they are nearly all the same because the top guy wasn't banned and didn't skip.

Yes Lee was ranked 7th at world. If Russia qualifies either as a 3rd or true 5th place finisher at Worlds and the 6th place finisher is otherwise qualified, then Lee would get the spot vacated by the Russian. However if Mamedov finishes 6th and Russia qualifies through the European/World qualifier then the spot would go to the highest ranked finisher at the Euro/world qualifier that isn't otherwise qualified.

Actually there is a prescribed plan for this though the plan has this happening in June 2024, but maybe the IOC hasn't figured out the Russian/Belarussian situation by then. https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Olympic-Games/Paris-2024/Paris2024-QS-Wrestling.pdf

If the format is like that last time there is no true second place and they don't wrestle the final. So only one is needed to mess things up. I don't think they seed the brackets either and even if they do at least RBY will have 0 rankings points so I'm sure he wouldn't be seeded.

5-3 in JB's favor I believe. I also think Taylor's domestic record hurts his standing a bit. He was 0-5 against Dake in freestyle and 0-3 in NCAA competition. He is 1-4 against Burroughs with that one win being on criteria and with Burroughs essentially wrestling up a weight for that Flo event. He is 1-2 against Cox. He only really got a spot after moving out of Burroughs's weight even then not until 79 and 92kg were added and Dake went down and Cox went up. I don't think any of the other top 5 guys had to move around after being consistently beaten out for the spot like Taylor.

Well if they take as long to decide for the Olympics as they did for worlds it is likely that they will take whoever is on site and ready to wrestle. Could be like how Zadick got into the 2008 Olympics. The 6th place finisher at worlds may well have qualified the weight via a continental or world qualifier by the time this gets decided.

What kind of NIL money would he command? Would have to be in the ballpark of the numbers that were rumored to have been offered to Carr and Steveson.

Zain, Fix, and Green need to give Micic a call and ask what he did. All three must go down if they are to make the Olympics.

Mongolia isn't qualified either. They are top 5 in the current world rankings. Amouzad, the top ranked wrestler, hasn't qualified the weight yet either. Also I think you are posting in the wrong thread now.

65kg is going to be crazier. Otoguro and Aliyev the finalists from the last Olympics failed to qualify the weight. As did India, country of bronze medalist Punia. Russia has a wrestler in the bronze match today, but as of now they also have not qualified the weight.

Why didn't Otoguro wrestle in the repechage? This leaves both the gold and silver medalists from Tokyo not qualified at 65kg. The only such mens freestyle weight.

We haven't qualified 97kg. Snyder could still qualify the weight tomorrow with either 3rd or a true 5th place finish.

You forgot one. 9 on B Anthony Wesley vs Feng Lu (CHN)

I don't think any were formerly announced by the school or the NCAA to the public. However it does seem like Mineo is not the only source. Intermat and Flo have removed Brands, Assad, Big Tone from their rankings. I doubt they would have done that on the word of Mineo alone.