lu_alum

As you know, John, I was among those proposing Stanich forfeit the final because there was no benefit from an NCAA point of view. Perhaps Stanich simply wanted a shot at avenging a loss to a kid who beat him when both were in HS last year? If so, I can’t fault Stanich for that. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not really. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Better result than the last time they wrestled. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True, but it doesn’t appear on his ISRF. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just looked at Voelker. In his case, he won a pigtail and R1 bout prior to losing in R2. That put him in a spot to run six bouts to place 3rd. I stand corrected.

Not true. Prior to 1996, you had to be pulled into the consolation by losing to a quarter-finalist. The was no drop into the consolation bracket for the R2 losers. Here is a 1995 and 1996 bracket comparison. As you can see, by introducing complete wrestlebacks in 1996, an extra round was added to the consolation bracket.

I couldn't find any others. Checked every bracket from 1996 onward. I started at 1996, as this was the first year that a full double-elimination structure was implemented with complete consolations. This is key to getting to eight wins because, as I posted earlier, the only way to winning additional bouts are: Winning a pigtail (either in the topside or consolation) Lose a bout in championship R1 or R2 (this gives you an extra bout in R2 consolations) Win the R12 bout in the consolation Win the consolation semi-final. If you do all of those, you pick up an extra 4 bouts beyond the typical five bout a champion wins. That make nine total bout -- the 3rd place finisher ends up 8-1 for the tourney. The only guy I've seen that has done this was Quisel. Again, it may have been possible in one of the early tourneys that was structured as a round-robin (see 1936 and 1948).

Found my first guy: Larry Quinsel (Boise State), 1999 @ 157. Lost in R1, dropped in consolation pigtail and ran eight straight to place 3rd. Still digging for others.

First names are necessary for what you've listed. If you mean Zach Epperly (lost initial bout and placed 3rd on 2016), he "only" won seven bouts. Same for Patrick McKee - he won his initial bout, lost in 2nd round, and then won six straight to place third, for a total of seven wins. To win eight bouts in a bracketed tourney... you need a pigtail to get the extra bout. Look for 3rd place winners who had a pigtail AND lost in either R1 or R2 to eventually place third. There were some years that the NCAA championship was also an Olympic trial event, and they used round-robin bracketing.

Losing as a #1 was a death sentence when you needed to be pulled back into the consolation bracket as a result of the success of the guy who beat you. My guess is it occurred prior to complete consolation brackets.

I downloaded all of Boomer's result sheets/brackets (NCAA, EIWA, Big 8/12, and Big Ten). I was looking at brackets from the 1930s and just after the war. You beat me to it.

Well, it was a five-man bracket. He did lose twice by what today would be a MAJ decision (12-3 and 10-2).

When were the "non-pigtail" years? There have been championship pigtails in the 32-man bracket structure for every tourney since 1967. The only difference today is the existing process defines a single pigtail for each 33-man bracket, as opposed to the era when qualifying tourneys selected their own national qualifiers allocated by the 5-year R12 calculation and the (back-room) "wildcard" process.

Miklus only had 27 bouts. Never had a pigtail. 2015: 7 bouts to earn 7th (lost R2) 2016: 6 bouts to earn 6th (lost in SF) 2018: 6 bouts to earn 8th (lost QF) 2019: 8 bouts to earn 6th (lost R2) A finalist at NCAA will have five bouts. Non-finalist All-Americans pickup extra bouts by: Having a pigtail (+1) Losing in the first two rounds of the tourney and make the blood round (+1) Win the blood round bout (+1) Wrestling the consolation semi-final (+1) To have eight bouts in an NCAA tourney you need to make the consolation semi-final after: losing a 1st or 2nd round bout, or having a pigtail and losing in the QF It's only possible to have nine bouts if place top 6, and have a pigtail AND lose in either the 1st or 2nd round. The extra year for COVID makes it necessary to normalize by the number of tourneys. Only guys with 4-for-4 or 5-for-5 should be eligible. Adjusting Miklus' count and normalizing gives us the following for the list provided:

They only adjusted it by two days, changing the end date from a Friday to a Sunday. They obviously caught the error in the Pre-Championships Guide and corrected it in the 2-Jan update to the Qualifier Allocation Criteria. As for NCAA being "later this year", I believe the championships typically begin on the 3rd Thursday of March.

For the state tourney in PA, it's a combination of Win Pct and Prestige Points. I believe the process can vary across the various district tournaments. I know the area where I grew up, PA District IV, uses Win Pct, subtracting 8pts for each match short of 10 bouts. i.e., an 8-0 record would be scored as 100-2*8 = 84. When I wrestled in the 1980s, the seeding formula favored guys who wrestled more bouts. We were given 5pts for a win, and had 3pts subtracted for each loss, with prestige points being added afterward. Not sure if any PA districts still use this type of scoring process.

For those who are interested, here is the site from where I am pulling all of this NCAA information: https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2013/10/23/division-i-wrestling.aspx * the 'Selection Process' file I shared earlier was from 2019. The link for the 2023-24 version is below. Contents are as follows: Championship Information 2023-24 Coach and Administrator Meeting Slides 2023-24 NCAA Division I Wrestling Coaches Ranking Roster 2023-24 Season Information Memo 2023-24 Qualifier Allocation Criteria 2023-24 Team Registration Link 2023-24 Championship Webinar Manuals 2023-24 Pre-championships Manual 2023-24 Host Operations Manual 2022-23 Participant Manual Links and Resources NCAA Wrestling Registered Officials Skin evaluation and participation status form Dual Championship Scoring Model Team Component Presentation Division I Men's Wrestling Selection Process Center Mat National Wrestling Coaches Association Wrestling Rules of the Game

It appears that the "magic date" has shifted since the Pre-Championships Manual was published in September. According the an update published on 2-Jan, all matches through 25-Feb count toward conference allocations. See page 2 of the linked file: https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/wrestling/d1/men/2023-24D1MWR_QualifierAllocationCriteria.pdf

More good stuff. This explains seeding... https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/wrestling/d1/men/D1MWR_SelectionsProcess.pdf

Page 13... https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/championships/sports/wrestling/d1/men/2023-24D1MWR_PreChampsManual.pdf

Fifteen required for an RPI (must be against D1 competition). Coaches' Rank and Win Pct will earn an allocation for the B1G, but the lack of an RPI will negatively impact someone when applying the formula for seeding criteria. Example being Brooks as a #3 last year.

I only went back to edit my post because my search resulted in this... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cadet,_Junior,_and_Espoir_World_Champions_in_men's_freestyle_wrestling

EDIT: I originally quoted Haselrig's wiki page without checking. Not sure if the following is accurate, "Haselrig was the 1985 Junior Greco-Roman World Champion, and the 1986 Junior Freestyle World Champion, while competing for the United States in the heavyweight division."

I like the result. Can you explain your methodology? EDIT: Looked above and saw your explanation. Net team points generated v the field. Interesting way to look at it.