scourge165

Right. It's not an indictment on the older Wrestlers. As I mentioned, you had so many guys who didn't start until HS or in HS. It's just...so obvious and the reason is simple. You have a kid who's getting private lessons from NCAA Champs or AAs vs Wrestlers who grew up when Club Wrestling was rare or who just started as a Freshmen and what do you expect? As for the idea that they called Stalling so much quicker then, look at Jim Heffernan in the '87 NCAAs vs the Iowa State kid or the St. John match you posted. It was and remains hit or miss. Wrestlers today are more...just savvy. How many times do you see the ref get to a 4 count and the top Wrestler pulls his foot out of bounds? The Mat awareness, the defense and counter Wrestling...I had this discussion with MSPart when I said I thought PSU would win the vast majority of the matchups between "all-time greats" because it was presented as if you took Ed Banach and matched him up against Brooks or Nickal, who'd win. He then asked if I thought those Wrestlers with the same time and training would adjust and...of course I do. But I don't see how you can argue just the old style of Wrestling would beat today without the benefits the Wrestlers have had today...that doesn't make sense to me, and again, it's anecdotal, but a couple of guys who won NCAA titles in the 80s who've mentioned how much better the technique is(it was specifically in regard to Banach FTR). This is a losing argument for EVERY generation IMO. No sport is "better" in terms of skill now than it was 20-30 years ago. Wrestling in particular, guys develop techniques to stop the best Wrestlers or the most effective techniques. I still don't think PSU has reached the level of dominate that Iowa did when you compare Gable and Cael at the same points. But go back and look at the 1987 NCAA Finals matches when Iowa's 9 year run was stopped by Iowa State. The caliber of Wrestling is just not the same. The effort, the toughness, the heart...all there. The Mat awareness, and the technique...not so much. Edit-The one I just watched today started with Jackson from MSU at 126 winning the title and had all the matches, but this works.

Who said they COULDN'T scramble? Most of those old timers will tell you themselves the Wrestling technique is better today by a WIDE margin(by the way, one of them sent me this exact video within 30 minutes). You can't compare the scrambling back then with the scrambling now. I'm also not sure how you come to the conclusion that Wrestlers transitioned quicker from Folkstyle to Freestyle. You've got guys winning Olympic Golds while in College now, you have World Medalists NOT winning NCAA Titles. You've got more success in Freestyle now. I suppose it's taken longer for some because they've been blocked by other gold medalist. Dake, Taylor, Howe by JB. Cox by Snyder.

This was why I didn't go with the usual group I go with. We were gonna stay at a friend of a friends house with 6 guys and...it just wasn't worth it to me. That and we were driving down, so it would have been another long drive to Tulsa.

Absolutely brilliant article. Little Onion feel to it. The sarcasm is hilarious. The consequences may not be...

Is this wishful thinking or are you serious? I had my family over for Thanksgiving and we told the kids, "no phones at the table." I look up while eating and my 79 year old Uncle, my Father(in his 60s) along with a cousin in his 50s, all glued to their phones. People are like zombies. Try and take away a 14 year old girls Instagram or Tik Tok? They'll treat you like a rat gets treated in prison. Better go into the room with magazines tapes across your core, lets and protect your neck! We'd be MUCH better off if Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Tik Tok were gone. Anyone hear about the guy who just got shot during a "prank?" He'd go up to guys and just try taking their groceries and other such stupid shit. They'd check out(self check out) and he'd just start grabbing their bags and walking away...and other similar shit with their cars or...whatever. Caught one to the gut, but he survived. Darwin lost that one. Kids eating Tidepods...and there are a lot of dumber ones, but I don't use Tik Tok. The TOS are terrifying.

I will agree with you on this. I don't like that he was prosecuted on this one. I think there are other things that were MUCH more important and clear cut(The phone call to Georgia, possible tax evasion if, as it seems he lied about his assets to secure loans). But if this is JUST about the payments to Stormy Daniels? At the same time, lets not pretend this is unprecedented. They did prosecute John Edwards for a similar "crime." He was a prominent Democrat...still, not the same as President.

That seems right. I've seen Gable in the corner and he's animated, but this one was a few notches above that. I really don't know how Cael can sit in the corner like that, so little emotion. They're two kinda extremes(Barry Davis is another). You invest that time and energy and that IS a life changing event for a kid you've got a lot of time and energy in...

Right...the 14 Eastern Bloc Countries that dominated were the primary ones...just pointing out there were other Countries beyond them who boycotted.

I'm just saying I'd never heard of the term "Mickey Mouse Championships." I'd heard other varying phrases...not Mickey Mouse Championships." I don't really think it's all that important where it comes from, the sentiment behind it is.

Right...as I said, I'd heard Mickey Mouse organizations or other references before...never heard of "Mickey Mouse Championships." And the "World started before 2020?" Yeah, no shit. Doesn't mean that's now when that particular phrase came along. When the NBA played what people viewed as a DIMINISHED Championship held at Disney World. I don't really care though. You take out the athletes Russia and Belarus from Wrestling, it's going to be a...diminished Championship. Not a good enough reason to leave them in, but objectively a inferior Olympic Competition...the definition of "MIckey Mouse Championship." Doesn't mean there won't be other really good Wrestlers. It does mean...it will be diminished.

I didn't even see this. This is somehow getting to the bottom of the "Challenger Deep," and then digging down further.

When? I'd never heard Mickey Mouse Championship before 2020. I'd heard "Mickey Mouse organization," or other references...this was all I could find. And...it's objectively true. The 1984 Olympics didn't have MOST of the top Wrestlers. 14 Eastern Bloc Countries, then Iran, Cuba and other Wrestling powerhouses dropped out. If you have an Olympic Championships without Russia...or to a lesser extent Belarus, it will VERY clearly be "of inferior quality." So, a Mickey Mouse Championship.

That was when the NCAA should have implemented reviews. It wasn't until...what, 5-7 years later they did.

Yeah, this and it's also kinda lazy to say "the fanbase" is complaining about X because you have a handful of people complaining. "The fanbase" save for a very small number of people don't complain about St. Louis. They seem pretty satisfied with the NCAAs behind held there. You're absolutely right...some complaints are warranted. Others aren't. There's a bit more nuance to it than seeing someone in a thread saying, "I don't like the cobblestone in St. Louis," and saying, "see, the fan base complains about everything. Does it? Or is it like 3 people out of tens of thousands?

Whoever ends up at Michigan or Iowa...

Of course Mcllravy would be great in today's Wrestling. I have no doubt about that. Same goes with all these guys. I don't know that he'd have the same level of success. I think you'd take a guy like Gerry Abas who was pretty clearly a superior technician and he'd most likely just be in better shape and hold onto a a match like the one Mcllravy had as a Freshmen. As I said, I got talked out of my position on Mcllravy a bit. I had him in the top 3-4 all time(again, starting in the "modern era when guys got to Wrestle for 4 years)...but an old coach/Wrestler made a persuasive argument that he wouldn't be able to just grind guys down and moved him down So I'm really not firm in where I put Mcllravy beyond great. Is he top 5, 10...top 15? He was great and he'd be great if he was coming up now. And it should be obvious why athletes from the ~80s weren't as advanced in terms of technique. So many of them started Wrestling in HS or maybe 8th grade. Lee Kemp started as a Soph in Ohio after getting cut from Basketball, was like 11-8 as a JR and then won two state titles and was in the NCAA finals as a Freshmen. So of course I think guys who were that physically gifted would have a lot of success today... If you're comparing guys and how dominant they were in their era vs how dominant the PSU guys are now, then it tilts the board back a little more even. I'd still probably lean PSU, but it'd be close. I don't think anyone can have too much confidence in these guesses though. Joe Williams vs David Taylor? Even using how they were vs their contemporaries, how do you envision that match going. If you're including FS accolades, I guess Taylor gets it, but again, Williams is a guy I have a ton of respect for. I was a kid went he was Wrestling and that guy looked like a comic book character. His waist looked like it was 28 inches, his chest about 48 and he just controlled guy. TJ Williams is right there as well. Those were ironically a couple guys from Iowa who DIDN'T seem like they pressed the pace as much as other Iowa greats. You're talking about ALL TIME greats in almost every weight class...and both sides have guys not included. Barry Davis 3X Champ, 160-some wins? Mark Ironside, Randy Lewis? He was a fluke injury from being 2/1/1/1. Carter Starocci could win 5 NCAA Titles and he's not on there and if he is, Ed Ruth who was 3/1/1/1 and about as dominant as you can be doing so isn't on the list for PSU. I can go down these rabbit holes watching hours of certain guys or different Wrestling. In fact, when I reached out and asked the aforementioned older Wrestler about some of these guys, he sent me a bunch of videos and I watched about a dozen Randy Lewis matches. I have massive respect for all of these guys.

LOL...how the hell did this turn into a Red/Blue political debate? You need infrastructure. It's really that simple. St Louis is...AWESOME. They have done the best job IMO. If it's in STL, I'm going. If it's in NYC again I'll go(MSG and Wrestling was just...so unique and cool). I had no interest in going to Tulsa because of those damn Republicans! LOL..OR I'd just been there and it wasn't the most exciting outside of the Wrestling(Which as noted, is always great).

Well, they may have been put to bed, but Gable's waking them up again; This certainly sounds like he could wrestle next season(I'd imagine a limited schedule that UM would be thrilled to get)...cement his status as the greatest HWT ever and then go into Freestyle. It's not like his training has to change that much. He doesn't ride too much in Folkstyle and the transition for him would be pretty simple...I'd assume. “I miss being on the mats,” Steveson said, according to an MMAFighting.com article that was also shared on Steveson’s social media. “I miss showcasing my skills every year and going out there and putting on a good show and going out there and winning the national tournament. I miss it. I still have that competitive fighter and hope to get back out there really soon.

I think Cunningham deserves credit, but...I don't know how we can discredit the man himself. When Cael went to Penn State, I remember saying(and hardly being in the minority) that Penn State was going to have a dynasty. My thought was they'd get Penn's best and really that was it. In reality, he hasn't always gotten the best in-state Wrestlers, but he finds Wrestlers who fit what he's looking for. There's also the way they talk about Cael. They hold Cunningham and in high esteem(Cody for that matter). But Cael was turning ISU around, then almost immediately turned Penn State into a powerhouse. I think there's a case to be made that Iowa was more dominant than PSU. If you used the same scoring, I believe Iowa still has the most dominant 3-4 NCAA team Titles since ~1970. So I guess in that sense you could argue that Gable is on a higher level than Cael(I think you'd really be nit picking)...but Cael brought instant credibility. The type I think a, Burroughs, Dake or Taylor could bring, should either decide they want to get into coaching.

Ahhh...damn, I meant Cael and GABLE, not Brands. I'm not sure Brands has that same ability that GABLE did.

And I'll give the edge to Cael because...I've seen him. For ME to give it to Uetake, it'd be coming from a place of ignorance and just looking at his accomplishments. I don't have Cael ranked over Uetake, I just don't have Uetake ranked. But I really do get and respect why others feel differently.

He was an Olympic champ a year before his first NCAA Title...so while you can't just hand out NCs, I think it's safe to say he would have won it. As for where he ranks all-time...we're really just guessing. 2X Olympic Champ, 3X undefeated Champ...the credentials speak for themselves. It's just like the Iowa vs PSU matchup. It's too difficult to compare Wrestlers from one era to another. Agreed. I don't quite have the same issue with guys who wrestle a more strategic match. It depends who it is. Marinelli or RBY? One is capable of attacking and wrestling "strategically" is a choice. One is just limited physically and he needs to try and sorta grind you down and wear you out. It's one of the things Cael CLEARLY does a good job at, having his Wrestlers attack without the fear of giving up points. That's a metal hurdle a lot of guys struggle to get over. But just again, I think you're absolutely right...there is no formula to come up with the best Wrestlers ever. Every 3X Champ isn't ahead of David Taylor. Every 4X Champ isn't ahead of every 3X Champ. Lee Kemp is ahead of...Logan Stieber in my opinion. He lost in the finals on a referees decision....by the way, lets bring that back...see how fun we can make shit next year! Just have refs picking who wins if the match is tied after 7 minutes! I want no criteria...I want to hear a ref say to Tom Brands upon asking why Real Woods lost on a referees decision, "because you're very mean to me." Seriously though, it's NEVER as simple as putting shit into a formula. BUT...it also makes it virtually impossible to really rank Wrestlers from before the ~80s. A lot of my opinions are informed by a couple guys who Wrestled in the 80s, who saw these Wrestlers, one who reffed and actually reffed a lot of Iowa. But I guess that's how it works in every sport, isn't it? If you actually know Football, you understand you can't compare QB stats from the 1970s to today. The game has just changed too much.

Fair enough. I think of Kemp as one of the all-time greats. Top...5(at least in the 4 years eligibility era). Kemp went 2/1/1/1 and he lost on a referees decision despite getting the only takedown of the match, stopped Gable from making a comeback(at least that's how the story goes) and would have almost certainly won an Olympic Gold in '80. But we just disagree on how significant the style of Wrestling is. To be clear, I think I'd have said the same about Carr, or Taylor or just a lot of the better '65 pounders in recent years....which is why I like to just compare guys vs their era and measure what they actually accomplished vs what another athlete has accomplished. I really hate saying I think this Wrestler would beat Lee Kemp. He's the greatest Wrestler in Wisconsin history and better than anyone FROM Wisconsin.

This seems fair...and I'd say something both Cael and Brands have in common that very few coaches do(I'd argue Koll might have a similar ability). Brands and a guy like Ryan, they can recruit elite Wrestlers. It seems like Cael(or maybe it's Cunningham, who knows) is looking for a type and Gable did have an incredible ability to get the best out of his athletes. The Barry Davis story where he tried to leave before the B1Gs might be the best example.

I don't think that people are saying Cael is BETTER than Gable at coaching(certainly not "much better")...at least that's not how I've read it. I've read it that Cael has...evolved beyond where Gable and Iowa was. The sport has...which is to be expected, it's been 20+ years, but Cael in particular given his success. Cael's best teams haven't been better than Gable's but right now...in 2023, the opinion some had shared, myself included, is that Gable's ideology wouldn't work. He couldn't have Iowa guys who were so much more relentless until they broke their opponents, just beat them up and score repeatedly late in big matches. PSU guys don't gas and there were plenty of matches Iowa Wrestlers won vs much better technicians based on their gas tanks alone. How much weight are you really putting on the Banach Gold Medals? They were the best when you took out most of the best Wrestlers from the field. It's not nothing. They made Olympic teams and they were better than who Japan and a few other good Wrestling countries had. They never won world medals and '84 is, in large part, the only success the 9 Gold or Silver medalists in Freestyle from '84 had. So who's losing? Given that Lou kinda tried to outpower guys, I'll take McCoy there. at 197, Bo Nickal wins. 184-Brooks or Ruth could have. 174-I won't pretend to know and I think it's kinda silly to even have him on there. In reality, if we're having the 1948 version of Joe Scarpello on the roster, he's probably not competitive against most College Wrestlers. Nobody really has any idea what he looked like or how he wrestled. We know that after the NCAA didn't wrestle for a few years, he came in shortly after, had a couple of 11-0 or 15-0 seasons and won 3 titles. Is that enough to form any type of...well, informed opinion? 165-Joe Williams-Taylor I have no clue. Williams is the first guy starting heavy and moving down who could have very quickly adjusted all the passing the ankle bullshit. He also Wrestled very close matches vs great Wrestlers. I would lean Taylor, but I'm a huge Wiliams fan. 157-Nolf? If you're just going by NCAA finishes, 2/1/1/1...but I'm not. But I think that needs to be mentioned. Wrestled vs some of the better '57 pounders ever, beat them and especially with I-Mar, he was on pace to be an All-Time great 4X Champ and then along came Nolf. 149-Again, I think this is a extremely tough match to call. I'll just qualify this by saying I thought Mcllravy was one of best ever...but a pretty compelling argument was made as to why he shouldn't be. He needed I think 3 TDs late and a stall call to beat Abas, went to OT with Bono. He won by wearing guys out(he was click with that boot scoot as well). But is he wearing Zain out? 141-I'd go with Ironside...and I'd say he should be ranked higher than Lee. 133-Brands, again, clearly ranks higher than RBY(especially now). But if he wrestled his style vs RBY... 125-This one's beyond obvious. This has been discussed at length, but if you're going by how Ed Banach or Chris Cambell wrestled their style vs how Brooks/Ruth/Nickal wrestled, I don't see how they win. If you're going by where they should rank historically...well, I'm still not sure about them, but it gets a little easier to pick who'd win at 133/141/149. Then it's Iowa guys. 165 you have Taylor, a 2X Hodge winner and if we're going to count Freestyle accomplishments, a WC and an Olympic Champ when there was no Eastern Bloc boycott...which obviously also included Cuba, Iran, Poland...a LOT of the elite Wrestlers. Ultimately, I think it's fun to look at each teams best lineup's or wrestlers, but this is ALMOST always going to favor the most recent Wrestlers in an actual hypothetical matchup.