fishbane

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Overall the Neumann part was the worst bit. Neumann would have had a duty to report Plienis's gambling. Not only did he not do that but then he loaned him money and covered it up. Neumann's involvement made it a major violation. For Plienis's part I'm not sure the loan was worse than the gambling. I feel like athletes have received small impermissible benefits akin to an interest free $500 loan for a few months without it ending their college careers. It was more the gambling that lead to his death penalty. I think if Neumann had loaned him $500 to fix his car Plienis would have wrestled again.

The last gambling related story that I can think of in NCAA wrestling was at Nebraska. The Nebraska heavyweight JR Plienis got into some gambling debt betting on football (college and pro) and borrowed some money from the Nebraska head coach Tim Neumann to pay the debit. Neumann I think actually took program money for the loan and he ultimately resigned over it and other accusation of improper compensation. Mark Manning was hired as his replacement. Plienis transferred, but was ruled permanently ineligible by the NCAA for the gambling.

Betting on yourself to cover the spread can be problematic too. Can cause nonsensical play calling, suboptimal strategy, or excessive risk to try and cover the spread Betting on yourself in a money line situation would have less of a conflict of interest, but in some sports spread betting is standard.

I think betting on yourself can have certain conflicts of interest too. In theory betting on yourself shouldn't present a conflict of interest, but in practice there are a lot of ways one can wager on a sporting event. The most famous college sports betting scandal in history didn't involve throwing games but shaving points. The team with the players in on the fix still won, but just not by enough to cover the spread. Betting on yourself to win a wrestling match any outcome no point spread sounds fine in concept, but what about betting to win by second period fall? I have an issue with that. Betting to win by decision? Also not good. Betting to win with a point spread? I don't like that either. A wrestler might be ahead late, but must win by 3 to cover the spread on his wager. I wouldn't want my wrestlers in a position like that where they are taking unnecessary risk late in a match because they are trying to win a bet. The NCAA has rules that prohibit athletes from betting on any sport they sponsor at any level. It's probably for the best. If an athlete/gambler ends up taking large losses with their wagers on other sports or even on themselves to win they might become beholden to an unsavory individual who wants him to fix some event or tempted to bet on events they are participating in so they can influence the outcome. The rule serves a purpose.

The MN number isn't right. The govsalaries had him earning $150k in 2018 and all years subsequent were around $40k. Not sure what changed in their reporting, but I don't believe he took a $110k paycut. He's probably around Clemson at $190k.

There was a topic on this a month or so back. At that time, I was able to find Goodale's University pay. NU and PSU are trickier to find since they are private institutions. Being non-profits there are some reporting requirements, but much less than state run institutions. https://intermatforums.com/topic/1750-what-are-the-top-20-wrestling-head-coaches-salaries/

Brands and the entire staff took a hair cut during COVID. "Wrestling head coach Tom Brands, who signed a new contract in February 2020 as the pandemic was about to begin, took his 15 percent cut from his July 1, 2020 salary — which increased from $190,000 to $350,000. In addition to Brands' $52,500 pay cut, he took another $30,000 budget reduction. His associates, Terry Brands and Ryan Morningstar trimmed their salaries according to the sliding scale Barta announced last summer — knocking $20,500 off Terry Brands' pay." https://www.galesburg.com/story/sports/college/football/2021/05/14/iowas-football-coaches-didnt-take-pay-cuts-pandemic/5091682001/

Indeed and especially so since they had paid his predecessor, Duane Goldman, $156,135 in 2018. $45k less for better results. Look at Terry Brands's salary as a guide and Cunningham is almost surely in the top 10 of all coaches including head coaches. The only private school coaches not on the list above that might be above him are his boss Sanderson, Santoro, and Koll. Half those guys have won team titles (Sanderson, Ryan, Brands). Maybe Dresser, Smith, Bormet make more. Suffice it to say that the likes of Terry Brands and Casey Cunningham would not be leaving for more money. There are maybe 10 school that would even match what they are making and they already work at two of them.

Terry Brand $227,402 in 2022 Ryan Morningstar $127,232 in 2022

Pitt and PSU are "state related" institutions. They are independent non-profit organizations that receive funding from the state government. PA residents do have reduced tuition there because of the state funding arrangement, but university employees are not state employees. This is contract to employees of the PASSHE schools (Bloomsburg, Clarion, Lock Haven, ect) that are directly run by the state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_System_of_Higher_Education

Yeah I think he is getting more than that and they must just be reporting things differently. I found elsewhere that he was paid $150,000 in 2018, but that was all I could find for 2021 or 2022. He is probably near $200.

Yeah most of these are government employees so their salaries are public record. Most I think should include bonuses paid, but maybe not housing or something not directly paid. The one one I am sure is wrong is Eggum. I think that is not being reported correctly although it was from gov salaries. It is probably $190-$220k Big programs that I'm missing PSU, Pitt, Cornell, Lehigh, Stanford, Princeton, Northwestern, Penn. Coaches would not be state employees at these places so there wouldn't be a reporting requirement. So I didn't really look although one of the parties could report the number to someone or it could have leaked.

John Smith $562,320.05 in 2022. Tom Brands $550,000 in 2022-23 Tom Ryan $406,980.00 in 2022. Kevin Dresser $325,000 in 2022 Bryan Smith $313,657 in 2022 Sean Bormet $300,000 in 2022. Chris Bono $267,385 in 2022 Larry Jones $261,269 in 2021 Scott Goodale $248,180 in 2021 Lou Roselli $235,000 in 2022-23? Patrick Popolizio $228,575 in 2022 Mark Manning $221,204 in 2021-22. Douglas Schwab $190,504 in 2022 Alex Clemson $189,000 in 2021 Coleman Scott $170,000 in 2022. Chris Pendleton $165,000 Anthony Robie $160,000 in 2022. Scott Moore $113,473 in 2021 Angel Escobedo $111,861.29 in 2021. Matt Hill $80,683 in 2022 Keith Ferraro $78,145 in 2021 Marcus Gordan $73,433 in 2022. Brandon Eggum $41,320 in 2022.

John Smith is the 25th highest paid employee at OSU $562,320.05 in 2022.

You are correct. The main reason I replied was to point out that Burroughs won their last folkstyle meeting, which was Burroughs's junior year. I think a lot of people forget about that match because Schlatter ended up redshirting that year.

They were both true freshman and I wouldn't say stomped. Their last meeting that season was at NCAAs, a 3-2 decision. I think the series was 2-0 Schlatter their freshman year, 1-0 Schlatter their Sophomore year, and then Burroughs turned the tables in 2008 in the finals of the Kaufman-Brand Open 6-4 at 157. For the subject of this thread I wouldn't consider Burroughs as an option at 149, but I would at 157 or 165. Schlatter would be an option at 149, but I think he is behind some guys there.

Yeah I guess I misremembered. Found this on his HOF bio "Following high school graduation, Schalles attended summer school for one week at East Stroudsburg and then left for Clarion University. The Eastern College Athletic Conference ruled that because he had attended summer school, Schalles had transferred to Clarion and would be required to sit out his freshman year. The NCAA said that Schalles could wrestle because summer school doesn’t count for any athlete, at any time, regardless of where they go. Seeded fifth at the NCAA tournament in 1971, he lost in the third round. Schalles won the NCAA Division I and Division II titles at 150 pounds in 1972 and at 158 pounds in 1973. He was named Outstanding Wrestler at both national tournaments in 1972. In 1974, Schalles went undefeated and wrestled the entire season per the ECAC rules, but was not allowed to attend the NCAA tournament given their previous ruling regarding his transferring."

He did, but I recall some distinction that he was ineligible as both a freshman and a senior. Perhaps I he could wrestle in the regular season, but not the post-season? I don't recall.

I think the jump happened sometime his freshman year followed by steady improvement and he just never passed Pendleton. Regardless of when the jump occured, he never jumped Pendleton. Pendleton beat him in freestyle after Askren graduated too. Askren made a single World/Olympic team (2008 Olympics) which was a year after he graduated. Ruth made a single World/Olympic team (2014 Worlds) which was the same year he graduated. Between the two I'd pick Ruth, but Askren has the better accomplishments strictly at 174. Since the weights changed there has been 1 3x 174lb champ (Starocci), 4-2x champs (Valencia, Perry, Askren, Pendleton) and 2-3x champs that won a single title at 174 before moving up to win two more (Ruth and Greg Jones). I think the only wrestler to compete in the postseason at 174 post the weight change was Jake Herbert (Silver Worlds 2009) but he never won a title at 174. Joe Williams won a title at 167 in 1998 which was essentially the same weight class. I think that was the year 7lb allowances were given and they formally changed the weights the next season. He has a pair of world bronze. Surprised no one picked Valencia, but Starocci is probably the pick.

Would it not make more sense to swap Retherford and Diakomihalis? Retherford was 5th in his lone season at 141 and a 3x champ 2x hodge winner at 149. Meanwhile Diakomihalis has two chips at each weight. Also should JB be there at either 157 or 165?

I don't know how depleted it was at this weight. Both 2018 Open finalists (McKenna and Eierman) were in the field. McKenna was in Final X 2018 and the OTT finals and Henderson was in final X 2022. I think absolute numbers were up because there weren't many events in 2020 so it was the only game in town. Several top guys skipped because it didn't qualify for anything, but then again those guys sometimes skip in a normal year if they are already qualified. Pretty sure Fix is the only one to make a world team. He made the team at 57kg in 2019 (dnp) and 61kg in 2021 (silver). Arujau was close losing in the OTT finals in 2021 and Final X in 2022. Starocci had notable performances at the 2021 and 2022 WTT beating the likes of Dieringer, Marsteller, Nolf, Lujan and Wick at 79kg. However all those wins came on the backside as he lost relatively early in both tournaments and came back to place 3rd on the ladder each time. Carr was 6th at senior nationals in 2020 losing to eventual champ Massa in the semis. At the OTT he beat Massa, but failed to place. His best placement was at the 2022 WTT where he finished 3rd and currently sits 4th on the national team ladder. Vito doesn't have an age level gold. The best he did was silver at both juniors and cadets. Starocci may not have gold, but he has the most recent world medal (bronze U23 in 2022). I'm not sure how relevant age levels are to an NCAA p4p list. After all Verkleeren was a cadet world champ and Braxton Amos was a junior world champ and those guys aren't making this list. Also for a lot of these guys these medals were won years ago. Brooks and Kerk haven't medaled at a world level event since 2018. For Carr and Vito it's 2019. Should two cadet medals 5-6 years ago have Kerk above a guy that won NCAAs this season and senior nationals in 2020 (2 things Kerk's never done)? I don't think so. That said, Kerk has had some decent placements in senior level freestyle events (2019 senior nationals and the OTT), but he always seems to beat college guys whilst losing to the older guys (Gwiz, Nelson, ect.) so it seemingly doesn't add much to his NCAA record. I agree that Alirez isn't making it to the top of the list or even the top 5, but it was striking that you had guys that placed 3rd and 4th at other weights ahead of him. Even now as you're discussing moving him up you open to the possibility of Lewis leapfrogging ahead of him. I was a little off earlier. Four wrestlers with remaining NCAA eligibility have won freestyle senior nationals; Fix (57kg 2019), Vito (57kg 2020), Alirez (65kg 2020), and Ramos (57kg 2022).

And Fix. Sports definitely top 5, but realistically ahead of Starocci or Carr too.

Winning Senior Nationals isn't a notable win? He was the OW of freestyle Senior Nationals in 2020 and beat the likes of Joey McKenna and Evan Henderson en route to the title at 65kg. He was 4th at the 2019 Schultz where he beat 2x NCAA champ Dean Heil. Who in your list has more impressive senior level freestyle results than that? I think Arujau is the only other guy to win Senior Nationals. He was also runner up at the olympic trials and maybe a WTT, so I'll give you him, but who else? There might be some argument for Starocci or possibly Carr, but that isn't clear cut. He has at least the 4th best senior freestyle results in the group.

What about Shane Griffith, Ridge Lovett and Cohlton Schultz? They don't even make the second HM group? Also how are 3 non-champs all above Alirez?