Midlands, Soldier Salute, Scuffle

[Elevator]

Seems like holiday tourneys are not quite as tough as pre-pandemic trditions - less participation from top competition and less depth overall.   Might be smart for some of the top guys to stay healthy and manage the risk of injury from a grueling sport by sitting our the holiday tourneys.

The upside is more room to see some of the newer competitors.  I am not complaining and note there has been a lot of exciting holiday wrestling!  

 

[BAC]

I feel ya.  A little less depth means a less excitement. 

My theory what we're seeing is the natural result of the power-shift between schools and top athletes that's taken place over the last few years.  Between NIL and the transfer portal, the best athletes have a lot of bargaining power.  And if they want to go home for the holidays, its harder for schools to say no.

Why do I say that?  Because the guys who aren't traveling to holiday tournaments are the very best guys/teams.  Everyone else is still going.

Look at last year's top 3 teams.  Michigan hasn't competed since 12/3 -- over a month off.  PSU hasn't competed over the holidays in a while, and the Scuffle hasn't been the same since.  Iowa competed, but could no longer be troubled to travel, insisting on staying home for the glorified intra-squad wrestle-off that they tried to pass off as a tournament. 

Look at two other top teams this year, ISU and Missou -- both at the Scuffle.  A few days, everyone was talking about 3 national champs going at it, including Carr and O'Toole.  Then ISU announces its best starters are staying home.  And then Missou announces it, too, will keep 3 of its top guys at home.  Both coaches refer to guys being "banged up" but who are they kidding.

I suspect all these coaches know that if they don't keep their top guys happy, they can easily be lured by some big donor from another school with a sweetheart NIL deal, and they're gone with the click of a button on their phone.

[Fadzaev2]

For many years, Midlands was the place to wrestle after Christmas.  In the early years, there wasn't much international stuff for our top post collegiate wrestlers to compete in, so you had for example in the early 70's, Gable, the Petersons, Behm, Taylor, Hellickson, Fujita, Schalles, Wojociechowski, Yagla, Azevedo, Gonzales and Kemp, all competing there.  Because it was THE event back then, many of the top teams came.  Having 3 tournaments in the same time frame has diluted all of the tournaments down..the Southern Scuffle, Midlands, and the Iowa whatever you want to call it....I know the "Salute".  And there's other factors as well....I don't have time to even think about what coaches are thinking about why or why not to compete, and where to compete.

[Tigerfan]

That’s a good theory, well conceived and elucidated. But it’s bunk. I know for a fact that the Mizzou guys wanted to compete, but trainers/coaches thought they should rest. I strongly suspect the same is true in every single “ducking” scenario ever. Athletes having more leverage would mean more competing, not less. 

[MPhillips]

12 minutes ago, Tigerfan said:

I know for a fact that the Mizzou guys wanted to compete, but trainers/coaches thought they should rest.

That's exactly what Smith said in the interview.

[Fadzaev2]

7 minutes ago, Tigerfan said:

That’s a good theory, well conceived and elucidated. But it’s bunk. I know for a fact that the Mizzou guys wanted to compete, but trainers/coaches thought they should rest. I strongly suspect the same is true in every single “ducking” scenario ever. Athletes having more leverage would mean more competing, not less. 

That wasn't meant to say coaches were "ducking" anyone, and I agree, athletes need to train and compete smart, including getting the correct amount of rest.  It's also possible, in your season long schedule to work to peak for a tournament like Midlands, which is at semester, and then begin anew at the start of the second semester, making your second peaking phase for the conference and NCAA tournaments.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

That's exactly what Smith said in the interview.

It is highly possible that we have a parent on the board.

Also related, Askren was under the impression that Keckheisen was wrestling in the Iowa tournament, because Parker had told him so a few days before.  

[BAC]

1 hour ago, Tigerfan said:

That’s a good theory, well conceived and elucidated. But it’s bunk. I know for a fact that the Mizzou guys wanted to compete, but trainers/coaches thought they should rest. I strongly suspect the same is true in every single “ducking” scenario ever. Athletes having more leverage would mean more competing, not less. 

My theory isn't the only explanation, but I do think its part of it.  You said it yourself in the other thread, when commenting snarkily on Smith's explanation that they are fighting sickness/injuries:  "Apparently only returning AA’s are susceptible to such ailments."

Indeed.  Quite a statistical anomaly, isn't it, that its always the most accomplished wrestlers who suddenly get banged up or sick over the holidays?  And always the highest-ranked teams who can't be troubled to bring travel to an out-of-state tournament with their starters over the holidays? You never wondered why?

There's other factors driving this too, of course.  Coaches want their best guys healthy in March and, with the RPI system, wrestlers and coaches know with more certainty what they need to do to qualify for Nationals -- which makes it easier to rationalize bailing out over the holidays. 

But Smith himself, in his interview on Flo, says he's far more deferential now than he used to be when guys come to him saying they want to take a pass on a dual or tournament.  (And he does NOT say his three scratches wanted to come to the Scuffle.  He says it was day to day and that it was a joint decision, but implies it was initiated/driven by the wrestler and it isn't his place to question it.)

Smith also rebuts your comment that "Athletes having more leverage would mean more competing, not less."  He was commenting that his newer wrestlers preferred a shortened season with fewer competitions.  And in general, I think you're overstating how much wrestlers spend their holidays cutting weight and traveling to some far-flung place, as opposed to seeing family, getting some rest and maybe nomming on some turkey.

But again, its the top wrestlers who have the most bargaining power.  Not only can they enter the portal on the drop of a dime, coaches also know that other schools' boosters could be dangling NIL money in front of them.  Coaches know this. So if the wrestler has the leverage to skip the holiday tournament without any blowback, there's a good chance he'll use it.

[JBluegill133]

2 hours ago, Fadzaev2 said:

For many years, Midlands was the place to wrestle after Christmas.  In the early years, there wasn't much international stuff for our top post collegiate wrestlers to compete in, so you had for example in the early 70's, Gable, the Petersons, Behm, Taylor, Hellickson, Fujita, Schalles, Wojociechowski, Yagla, Azevedo, Gonzales and Kemp, all competing there.  Because it was THE event back then, many of the top teams came.  Having 3 tournaments in the same time frame has diluted all of the tournaments down..the Southern Scuffle, Midlands, and the Iowa whatever you want to call it....I know the "Salute".  And there's other factors as well....I don't have time to even think about what coaches are thinking about why or why not to compete, and where to compete.

Being from the Chicagoland area growing up it was the absolute best to go watch midlands and see the "alumni" come and wrestle.   I was looking for the guys who won a bunch there....obviously Joe Williams is in a class of his own with 10 titles, but came across this article from 2007.

 

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/3206/Rev-Rewind-The-Midlands?

 

 

[Tigerfan]

26 minutes ago, BAC said:

My theory isn't the only explanation, but I do think its part of it.  You said it yourself in the other thread, when commenting snarkily on Smith's explanation that they are fighting sickness/injuries:  "Apparently only returning AA’s are susceptible to such ailments."

Indeed.  Quite a statistical anomaly, isn't it, that its always the most accomplished wrestlers who suddenly get banged up or sick over the holidays?  And always the highest-ranked teams who can't be troubled to bring travel to an out-of-state tournament with their starters over the holidays? You never wondered why?

There's other factors driving this too, of course.  Coaches want their best guys healthy in March and, with the RPI system, wrestlers and coaches know with more certainty what they need to do to qualify for Nationals -- which makes it easier to rationalize bailing out over the holidays. 

But Smith himself, in his interview on Flo, says he's far more deferential now than he used to be when guys come to him saying they want to take a pass on a dual or tournament.  (And he does NOT say his three scratches wanted to come to the Scuffle.  He says it was day to day and that it was a joint decision, but implies it was initiated/driven by the wrestler and it isn't his place to question it.)

Smith also rebuts your comment that "Athletes having more leverage would mean more competing, not less."  He was commenting that his newer wrestlers preferred a shortened season with fewer competitions.  And in general, I think you're overstating how much wrestlers spend their holidays cutting weight and traveling to some far-flung place, as opposed to seeing family, getting some rest and maybe nomming on some turkey.

But again, its the top wrestlers who have the most bargaining power.  Not only can they enter the portal on the drop of a dime, coaches also know that other schools' boosters could be dangling NIL money in front of them.  Coaches know this. So if the wrestler has the leverage to skip the holiday tournament without any blowback, there's a good chance he'll use it.

Again, you’re argument is solid if you accept the premise that wrestlers are driving this skipping competition trend. I just don’t. Iirc, didn’t Smith also say that after being told he couldn’t compete, O’Toole wanted to at least practice at home. Coaches forbade it. Coaches and wrestlers have a better understanding of RPI, etc., that certainly affects whether they decide to give wrestlers strategic rest. 

[nhs67]

The saving grace is that we got the Collegiate Duals.

Holiday tournaments in HS had more action and less ducking.  Look at the Powerade or Brecksville tournaments.  LOADED with action straight up and down the weights.

[Wrestleknownothing]

8 hours ago, Elevator said:

Seems like holiday tourneys are not quite as tough as pre-pandemic trditions - less participation from top competition and less depth overall.   Might be smart for some of the top guys to stay healthy and manage the risk of injury from a grueling sport by sitting our the holiday tourneys.

The upside is more room to see some of the newer competitors.  I am not complaining and note there has been a lot of exciting holiday wrestling!  

 

Don't forget the Collegiate Duals.

When Midlands was king, Midlands was it. Now there are four tournaments to spread the talent across. And most of the talent wrestled in New Orleans.

The Collegiate Duals has really siphoned off a lot of the talent. It had the #1, #4, #5, and #10 projected scoring teams at the NCAA. None of those teams followed up with Midlands, Scuffle or Salute in a meaningful way.

[Fadzaev2]

On 1/2/2023 at 3:10 PM, JBluegill133 said:

Being from the Chicagoland area growing up it was the absolute best to go watch midlands and see the "alumni" come and wrestle.   I was looking for the guys who won a bunch there....obviously Joe Williams is in a class of his own with 10 titles, but came across this article from 2007.

 

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/3206/Rev-Rewind-The-Midlands?

 

 

Think I read this some time ago, but thanks for sharing again!  I might have a couple links you'd and I'll post them here for you and the forum....

https://nusports.com/sports/2015/6/26/MIDLANDS_0626155320.aspx

 

https://nusports.com/documents/2016/1/13/Midlands_Record_Book.pdf

 

http://www.win-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/year-by-year-at-midlands.pdf

[CHROMEBIRD]

Revisiting this. 

Someone made an earlier comment about making the preseason tournaments a ranking series to boost participation. Sounds good. Another idea: in this age of NIL could a group of people put together a pool of prize money so there's are financial rewards for winning  or placing in tournaments? No idea if this is "legal" under NIL, just throwing ideas out there to boost participation and curtail MFF out of consis. 

[nhs67]

Anyone care to gather the data on AAs at each tournament?  Be nice to compare the CKLV, Scuffle, Midlands, and the Salute.

[Show_Me]

On 1/2/2023 at 5:17 PM, nhs67 said:

The saving grace is that we got the Collegiate Duals.

When are the Teams announced for the upcoming Collegiate Duals ?

[nhs67]

12 hours ago, Show_Me said:

When are the Teams announced for the upcoming Collegiate Duals ?

@Husker_Du, may know.

[AgaveMaria]

Years ago Midlands was THE tournament to enter.

You could wrestle World Champions, NCAA champions and even Coaches from your own team.

Some guys liked it, some didn't. A friend on one team was really excited to face off with one of his coaches in a real match. Not "The Room", but for real. Said it gave him more honest feedback as to where he was than weeks in the room. Another hated the idea.

Guys could see how they stacked up while watching top talent from years past. Most every top talent showed up.

Now - a ghost of greatness.

 

[TonyClifton]

On 4/5/2023 at 3:58 PM, nhs67 said:

Anyone care to gather the data on AAs at each tournament?  Be nice to compare the CKLV, Scuffle, Midlands, and the Salute.

Cliff Keen-29	Midlands-9	Scuffle-11	Soldier Salute-5
125-Ventresca-dnp	125-Courtney-2nd	125-Ramos-1st	125-Lee-1st
125-Cronin-3rd	125-Cardinale-6th	133-Fix-1st	141-Woods-1st
125-Ramos-2nd	149-Parco-2nd	133-Nagao-3rd	149-Murin-1st
133-Vito-1st	165-Monday-1st	141-Alirez-1st	197-Warner-1st
133-McGee-2nd	165-Hamiti-2nd	157-Franek-1st	285-Cassioppi-1st
133-Latona-6th	165-Olejnik-4th	165-Griffith-1st
133-Orine-dnp	285-Davison-1st	165-Caliendo-2nd
141-Hardy-1st	285-Schultz-3rd	174-Plott-1st
141-Carlson-6th	285-Hillger-6th	174-Mocco-2nd
141-Filius-7th		197-Laird-6th
149-Sasso-1st		285-Elam-1st
149-Parco-2nd
157-Robb-1st
157-Scott-3rd
157-Lewan-4th
174-Labriola-1st
174-Lewis-2nd
174-Foca-3rd
174-Smith-dnp
184-Hidlay-1st
184-Keckeisen-2nd
184-Romero-4th
184-Munoz-8th
184-Feldkamp-dnp
197-Sloan-3rd
285-Parris-1st
285-Davison-2nd
285-Hendrickson-4th
285-Schultz-8th