Why Even Bother with a Wrestling Season?

[LJB]

1 minute ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Just like the movie "Rudy" - having a goal, committing to it, and not letting setbacks stop you... until you finally win. That makes it all worthwhile.

Somehow my earlier message got twisted up. It's the winning part that makes it all worth it. You don't wrestle because you enjoy cutting weight, enjoy the miserable practices, or enjoy losing. Those things are the price you pay to be able to compete to win.

If you win or lose, isn't the point. It's about believing you can win and working your butt off to do it - that's what makes wrestling what it is.

or...

it could be purely about man to man competition and testing yourself no matter the outcome...

 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

5 minutes ago, LJB said:

sure it would to a normal...

but it had nothing to do with that...

in fact quite the opposite...

you wouldn't understand at all...

i was racing till i was 40...

the younger kid raced from 5 till about 11... wrestle on saturday and race on sunday was every weekend...

we still will hit the track for a play day when we can...

white picket fences and manicured lawns don't mean shit to us...

that is a slow death and there is nothing worse than that...

If you're burying participants with "regularity" - then I'd have to categorize it as just plain dumb. Plenty of sports to compete in where death isn't a regular result. The rest is macho BS.

That's just my humble opinion.

[LJB]

Just now, GreatWhiteNorth said:

If you're burying participants with "regularity" - then I'd have to categorize it as just plain dumb. Plenty of sports to compete in where death isn't a regular result. The rest is macho BS.

That's just my humble opinion.

and you are welcome to it...

we need people to stay home with the women and keep the home fires burning...

thank you...

[GreatWhiteNorth]

12 minutes ago, LJB said:

or...

it could be purely about man to man competition and testing yourself no matter the outcome...

 

If you aren't competing to win, then you aren't really competing.

At some point the outcome does matter - otherwise, it's the very definition of insanity.

[LJB]

9 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

If you aren't competing to win, then you aren't really competing.

At some point the outcome does matter - otherwise, it's the very definition of insanity.

Sure

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Not sure where this came from exactly, doesn't seem like it fits with the previous conversation. But yes - that's absolutely true.

Embracing competition is exactly what we wrestle for. But that does NOT make losing any fun - losing always sucks. A couple L's followed by W and it's still a W - and that W makes the wrestling life keep going. Those that compete and wrestle with nothing but L's - they almost always bail. (The rare ones that stay, I'm not sure how they are wired - certainly differently. There aren't that many of them.)

That's what makes you want to work and push through and get better...and that's what makes it all the more rewarding/fun(I've used them interchangeably) when you DO win.

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, Formally140 said:

I’m not self aggrandizing. There’s plenty of people doing better than me. It’s why I don’t usually bring up my team in arguments like this because people love if you will just make it about that and ignore the actual point..
 

You’ve been insisting pretty vehemently that the only thing that the only thing that can make wrestling fun is winning and anything I else is either poppycock or participation trophies. And getting irritated at the suggestion not agreeing is just stupid. And doubling down. Don’t back off what you’ve been insisting on now that I actually gave you a response

My VERY first paragraph in response to you was;

Quote

I actually think Wrestling is doing pretty well and having a bit of a renaissance, but it's never going to be Basketball or Football or even Baseball. It's not "fun" like those sports are. In order for it to be fun, you've gotta have success or at least be getting better. That requires a LOT of work. 

 

I made a single reference about "participation" trophies and that was in response to a cliché post about "someone wins, someone loses, life goes on.

You talk of being "pedantic?"

So yeah, that's not what got you all pissy. You seemed to be set on that to begin.

 

This also started out with a you talking about how the people who think this is a "niche sport" are "tuff guys who don't want their prodigy's to lose to Jordan Burroughs," and the inference that the only thing that stopped Wrestling from reaching the audience Basketball or Football had was because we didn't see the "big picture," and weren't "proactive." 

I said we'd have to agree to disagree and you've insulted me about a half dozen times on here.

You had your back up for some bizarre reason from the start.

 

I've said Wrestling is not FUN, it's REWARDING.  That's been the throughline the ENTIRE time. That winning is fun.  The process can be Rewarding. That's how it differs from other sports. That you've had success at your HS doesn't change that, it actually seems to confirm that.

You just told me how your team tripled their wins(or kids on it did) and you have several kids who were enthusiastic because they'd won most improved Wrestler. 

So that's be GETTING BETTER, no?

 

That's a VERY different type of "fun" than you have playing baseball or football. That is...again, a sense of accomplishment, a rewarding feeling. THAT is what makes the sport unique. Referencing back to Spencer Lee..."practice is miserable." That is an extreme perhaps from Iowa, but Wrestling practice by it's nature is going to be more difficult, more physically demanding than other sports. That's what sets it apart.

This again, is where you insulted me and said if you can't find a way to make Wrestling fun, you're either "incompetent or ignorant."

I said, this is why I believe that's why Wrestling isn't and hasn't been as popular as Basketball or Football. The work that it takes to get there. 

Those are my thoughts on why Wrestling isn't on the Level of Basketball or Football. You claimed several pages ago it could be if not for...and then I asked and you said you weren't going to waste your time. I think I've been pretty consistent and you seem like you're just...angry. 

 

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Just like the movie "Rudy" - having a goal, committing to it, and not letting setbacks stop you... until you finally win. That makes it all worthwhile.

Somehow my earlier message got twisted up. It's the winning part that makes it all worth it. You don't wrestle because you enjoy cutting weight, enjoy the miserable practices, or enjoy losing. Those things are the price you pay to be able to compete to win.

If you win or lose, isn't the point. It's about believing you can win and working your butt off to do it - that's what makes wrestling what it is.

YES!!!!

Thank you! 

And that sense of accomplishment, the work you put into it that just sucks, the 6 hour runs in the morning, the workout during lunch because you've got to make weight, the extra lifting, whatever it is, none of that is "fun." That is the point I was making. That's what's different than Baseball. The level of intensity.

You have NOBODY else out there to rely on. Your own work determines your success. 

 

I don't know what I said here that was so controversial. This started off(when I got into it) by simply stating Wrestling was different. That the payoffs, the "fun," or if you want to be pedantic and ignore where I said "rewarding" comes AFTER the hard work. 

 

I got a lecture in how well a team was doing to disprove that....I mean, that's wonderful. I applaud that. I really do. I don't know how that fundamentally changes any point I made.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

@scourge165 I appreciate your take.  I very much personally emphasized winning when I was younger.  My family dynamic was very competitive, so I believe some of my ways were inculcated very early on (almost beyond my control).

From 50-60+, I played basketball against 16-40 year olds.  These 'youth' call me "hardwired,"  so to them I am largely a lost cause.

Still, when coaching I have a different philosophy, because I don't see the mindset I carry when I compete as healthy.

I agree winning is more fun than losing.  I don't agree that one should not or cannot have fun simply because they lose.  The competition is the same.  The W or L is simply the result based on the rules of a game, preparation, factors beyond one's control, and the relative strengths and weaknesses of the competitors.

I've seen other coaches emphasize winning and how that affects youth when they lose.  Gamesmanship or even 'cheating' dishonors competition.  They don't occur when winning isn't over emphasized.

Barring ties, 50% of all competitors lose a given contest.  Fear of failure is something all coaches should proactively guard against.  All sports, including wrestling, should be much more about learning and improving than any final score.

None of this philosophy has anything to do with 'participation trophies.'  It has to do with keeping kids engaged in a sport despite results, because sports--the right way--are a valuable tool for quality character development in our youth.

BTW 'Participation Trophies' are to keep only the youngest engaged (a carrot) during their earliest learning years.  Then, they've had less time to recognize their improvement and can readily discern the gap in physical abilities between themselves and the more mature children in their age group.  These trophies cease to be effective with  youth who emphasize winning but don't improve to close this gap.

[LJB]

So, last fall the boy had a “super” match with another Greco fargo champ at one of the RMN… stage… lights… all that jazz… they ended the show…

He had not competed since fargo, so, probably 3-4 months… during that time he was training daily with a senior athlete… 

after the show was over and we were walking back to the car, out of the blue he says…

I love wrestling…

that was it…

it wasn’t I love winning…

he’s been winning since he was 5 at every physical activity he has tried…

it is about competition and your own highest level of performance…

winning is just a by product…

I understand others have a different point of view and they also have different resumes…

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

@scourge165 I appreciate your take.  I very much personally emphasized winning when I was younger.  My family dynamic was very competitive, so I believe some of my ways were inculcated very early on (almost beyond my control).

From 50-60+, I played basketball against 16-40 year olds.  These 'youth' call me "hardwired,"  so to them I am largely a lost cause.

Still, when coaching I have a different philosophy, because I don't see the mindset I carry when I compete as healthy.

I agree winning is more fun than losing.  I don't agree that one should not or cannot have fun simply because they lose.  The competition is the same.  The W or L is simply the result based on the rules of a game, preparation, factors beyond one's control, and the relative strengths and weaknesses of the competitors.

I've seen other coaches emphasize winning and how that affects youth when they lose.  Gamesmanship or even 'cheating' dishonors competition.  They don't occur when winning isn't over emphasized.

Barring ties, 50% of all competitors lose a given contest.  Fear of failure is something all coaches should proactively guard against.  All sports, including wrestling, should be much more about learning and improving than any final score.

None of this philosophy has anything to do with 'participation trophies.'  It has to do with keeping kids engaged in a sport despite results, because sports--the right way--are a valuable tool for quality character development in our youth.

BTW 'Participation Trophies' are to keep only the youngest engaged (a carrot) during their earliest learning years.  Then, they've had less time to recognize their improvement and can readily discern the gap in physical abilities between themselves and the more mature children in their age group.  These trophies cease to be effective with  youth who emphasize winning but don't improve to close this gap.

I'm just going to re-post my initial paragraph that got Formally so upset and leave this conversation alone;

 

Quote

I actually think Wrestling is doing pretty well and having a bit of a renaissance, but it's never going to be Basketball or Football or even Baseball. It's not "fun" like those sports are. In order for it to be fun, you've gotta have success or at least be getting better. That requires a LOT of work. 

 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

16 hours ago, LJB said:

So, last fall the boy had a “super” match with another Greco fargo champ at one of the RMN… stage… lights… all that jazz… they ended the show…

He had not competed since fargo, so, probably 3-4 months… during that time he was training daily with a senior athlete… 

after the show was over and we were walking back to the car, out of the blue he says…

I love wrestling…

that was it…

it wasn’t I love winning…

he’s been winning since he was 5 at every physical activity he has tried…

it is about competition and your own highest level of performance…

winning is just a by product…

I understand others have a different point of view and they also have different resumes…

Let me get this straight.

Giant "supermatch" with stage, lights, and "all that jazz" to end the show - and, after, he says "I love wrestling."

Of course, he does - he was in the main event and the center of everyone's attention. Every kid would love that.

I get it - you are very proud and want to post about it even if it is bragging. Nothing wrong with that. 
 

Except, taking shots at others here on the way is seriously weak. Calling out their "resumes"? C'mon - even weaker.

 

 

[scourge165]

On 4/7/2023 at 9:46 PM, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Not sure where this came from exactly, doesn't seem like it fits with the previous conversation. But yes - that's absolutely true.

Embracing competition is exactly what we wrestle for. But that does NOT make losing any fun - losing always sucks. A couple L's followed by W and it's still a W - and that W makes the wrestling life keep going. Those that compete and wrestle with nothing but L's - they almost always bail. (The rare ones that stay, I'm not sure how they are wired - certainly differently. There aren't that many of them.)

Agreed. 

It feels like there's a lot of cherry picking going on here. That's to be expected when LJB comes into the conversation and tells us about his kids...

As for the "embracing competition," you responded to, it's kinda funny, the people who accuse me of being "pedantic" by claiming I keep talking about "participation" trophies, I'll reiterate';

Quote

I actually think Wrestling is doing pretty well and having a bit of a renaissance, but it's never going to be Basketball or Football or even Baseball. It's not "fun" like those sports are. In order for it to be fun, you've gotta have success or at least be getting better. That requires a LOT of work. 

 

As for competition I said;

Quote

I mean...as I said, I can do so while playing Football. I could have fun in a game we loss. But when it's just me on the Mat, I never had fun losing. At the end of a National Tournament, I could feel a sense of accomplishment without having won, and that could be rewarding. 

 

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Let me get this straight.

Giant "supermatch" with stage, lights, and "all that jazz" to end the show - and, after, he says "I love wrestling."

Of course, he does - he was in the main event and the center of everyone's attention. Every kid would love that.

I get it - you are very proud and want to post about it even if it is bragging. Nothing wrong with that. 
 

Except, taking shots at others here on the way is seriously weak. Calling out their "resumes"? C'mon - even weaker.

 

 

LOL...of course that's great. Being in a high profile match. I promise it wasn't "fun" losing that match...but the problem is, we're getting Dad's translation of the son.

As I said previously, it can be rewarding. That's a sense of accomplishment when you wrestle someone who pushes you, you leave it all on the mat. You can lose that match and still come away feeling good as you can believe you're IMPROVING. Which...again, from my very first post. 

 

But again, no Wrestler enjoys losing. I don't believe any high level athlete does.
 

As Vince Lombardi said;

Quote

“show me a good loser and I will show you a loser.”

 

As for the resume stuff, yeah, that's pretty classless, but consider the source. 
 

I would certainly not point to any of Max or Otto's failures and shit on their resume...just because I've said repeatedly, I respect everyone who actually steps on the mat. They ACTUALLY understand what the sport is. If you haven't done that...you don't. 

And again, I have LBJ on ignore, but he's asked me constantly about my "credentials," or "resume," in situations where it really has absolutely nothing to do with the larger point. Listing off accomplishments or Wrestlers I've beat in a discussion like this feels a bit...self aggrandizing. 

I mean, I suppose I could ask my Dad to come on here and comment, or any number of coaches, but they likely all give me a funny look and just laugh! Particularly my Dad. He's a little classier and reserved. He's always said my accomplishments are not his(though, I do beg to differ). I've never heard him come back from a National Tourney and say, "WE were All-Americans." Hell, I don't think he' ever said, "he," referring to me was. Maybe if prompted, "how did he finish up," he may have.

 

In any event, I'm quite secure in my accomplishments and my resume.

 

The crux of the issue there is that I said I thought Greco was the easier style of Wrestling(which...again, for the umpteenth time, I would have NEVER gotten into had he not said Freestyle of Folkstyle were not "real" Wrestling(oddly enough, only the style his sons have had success at are "real" Wrestling.

 

 

Just in general though, this has just been a weird discussion. LBJ, I mean, I get his trolling. I've hit on some sore spots. Formally just seems oddly sensitive about my initial post. It seems like it started when I stated that I didn't think Wrestling could reach Basketball/Football level success, he took a great deal of offense. 

 

And, as always, LBJs participation makes it all the stranger given he's said Folkstyle and Freestyle are not "real Wrestling," and only Greco is. I suspect I know why that is, but I'll keep that to myself.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a good learner with promise to become a great sportsperson."

I don't believe Vince Lombardi talking about grown ass men playing a professional sport has much to do with keeping youth engaged in sports like wrestling.  But maybe I misunderstood this thread.

[scourge165]

3 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a good learner with promise to become a great sportsperson."

I don't believe Vince Lombardi talking about grown ass men playing a professional sport has much to do with keeping youth engaged in sports like wrestling.  But maybe I misunderstood this thread.

That's another thing. This just switched over to youth Wrestling because Formally140 got all up in his feelings and personally insulted because I said the sport isn't fun if you're not WINNING(or getting better) and that the sport was more rewarding...and then he just went off about his High School team. 

We're on a College Forum, why do you think this is limited to youth Wrestling?

[Formally140]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

That's another thing. This just switched over to youth Wrestling because Formally140 got all up in his feelings and personally insulted because I said the sport isn't fun if you're not WINNING(or getting better) and that the sport was more rewarding...and then he just went off about his High School team. 

We're on a College Forum, why do you think this is limited to youth Wrestling?

Lol

[scourge165]

4 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a good learner with promise to become a great sportsperson."

I don't believe Vince Lombardi talking about grown ass men playing a professional sport has much to do with keeping youth engaged in sports like wrestling.  But maybe I misunderstood this thread.

As it's too late to edit this, I wish I'd have clarified. 

Quote

 

But again, no Wrestler enjoys losing. I don't believe any high level athlete does.
 

As Vince Lombardi said;

 

I'm not talking about 3rd graders when talking about high level. I'm going into this with the expectation that you're not having a 3rd grader...or...hopefully any kid cutting weight, though I have seen it. I don't think a 3rd grader should be doing more than going to a practice maybe twice a week for 90 minutes with a nice warm up, a little technique, and then some shit to make it fun. 

This wouldn't apply to any kids, this wouldn't apply to any beginning Wrestlers, JV Wrestlers...

I used "High level." That can mean a kid Wrestling out at Fargo, it can mean State...it was more directed to COLLEGE athletes or Sr level athletes as...again, this is a COLLEGE Forum. 

But no, this was obviously NEVER meant for Youth Wrestlers.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

4 hours ago, scourge165 said:

why do you think this is limited to youth Wrestling?

I didn't say or think it was limited to.

I simply understood (or misunderstood) the earlier discussions about the NCAA regular season had transitioned to youth wrestler development in the best interest of wrestling (e.g. college) on page 2 (by Formerly140).

Edited April 10, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[98lberEating2Lunches]

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

no Wrestler enjoys losing

I don't believe anybody is arguing that anyone who competes "enjoys" losing, in that they'd get some pleasure from it or prefer it over winning.  I certainly don't.

I do believe some disagree with you that having a material concern with the result (win or loss) either preparing for or during a competition -- regardless of level (youth, college, high-level, low-level) -- is good for optimal development or performance.  I am in this camp.  In other words, hating losing or fear of being labeled a loser is neither healthy nor good for optimal performance and associated results.

We can agree to disagree on this point.

Edited April 10, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[Le duke]

“Show me a good loser and I will show you a loser.”

Go watch Brooks lose to Coleman. Particularly the bit after the final whistle.

Then watch his NCAA tournament.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

I don't believe anybody is arguing that anyone who competes "enjoys" losing, in that they'd get some pleasure from it or prefer it over winning.  I certainly don't.

I do believe some disagree with you that having a material concern with the result (win or loss) either preparing for or during a competition -- regardless of level (youth, college, high-level, low-level) -- is good for optimal development or performance.  I am in this camp.  In other words, hating losing or fear of being labeled a loser is neither healthy nor good for optimal performance and associated results.

We can agree to disagree on this point.

It has nothing to do with anyone else's expectations or what someone may label me. It has to do with my own competitive drive and the nature of the sport. 

 

I'll just reiterate my fundamental believes and narrow them down because they've gotten too vague and we've gotten off topic to other areas.

1-I think Wrestling is less popular than Baseball or Basketball because those other two are more fun for the average person to participate in. Everyone(almost) shoots hoops or plays catch. 

2-I think Wrestling is tougher. It's HARDER to have success. It's not just about talent. SO much more goes into it than that. The mental toughness to push yourself MUCH further than you have to in Baseball or Basketball or Football. 

Quote

Wrestling is tough, that's why you have trouble retaining kids. Basketball is easy. That's why they don't have as much trouble. That's my opinion. 

----These are the reasons I don't believe it was ever going to be as popular as those sports.

3-I think more than being "fun," Wrestling is rewarding. Just like running can be. Pushing yourself physically and getting better. 

AGAIN, as I've said numerous times, I originally said, 

Quote

I actually think Wrestling is doing pretty well and having a bit of a renaissance, but it's never going to be Basketball or Football or even Baseball. It's not "fun" like those sports are. In order for it to be fun, you've gotta have success or at least be getting better. That requires a LOT of work. 

The "fun" is used interchangeable with rewarding by me, and maybe that's where I made a mistake. Either way, you're not keeping people out if they're not having having success or at least getting better. Success can be measured in different ways. 

Quote

I loved Wrestling in the Tournaments, but again, the work that it takes to get there is different in Wrestling than other sports. It's rewarding more than "fun" in my opinion. It's different than getting ready for a game on Friday Night(which I also loved).

Quote

I mean...as I said, I can do so while playing Football. I could have fun in a game we loss. But when it's just me on the Mat, I never had fun losing. At the end of a National Tournament, I could feel a sense of accomplishment without having won, and that could be rewarding. 

 

Are we REALLY arguing that what it takes to be good or great at Wrestling, to compete at the highest levels in HS, in College(at any level) that it doesn't take more work than Baseball or Basketball? That was the origin of this branch of the discussion. That Wrestling could be just as popular as those IF NOT FOR....I disputed that and was told it was about me being a "tuff guy."

 

And once more, I am driven in Wrestling to get better. To win. I DO have a fear of failure and I think that's healthy. I think it's pushed me. Knowing I was going to have to Wrestle a certain Wrestler, it made me work harder. It had NOTHING to do with anyone else's perception because it's not about that. You're CANNOT Wrestle to meet someone else's expectations or for anyone other than yourself. You're going to hate the sport. So no, it wasn't about being thought of as a loser.

 

And it doesn't even have to be the "fear" of losing, it's remember what it felt like when you lost, holding onto that and using that to drive you to get better. 

 

If you think that's unhealthy...so be it. I happen to think that's what pushed Gable to go out and run 6 miles immediately after winning a World Championship because he had to get ready for next year. 

[scourge165]

9 minutes ago, Le duke said:

“Show me a good loser and I will show you a loser.”

Go watch Brooks lose to Coleman. Particularly the bit after the final whistle.

Then watch his NCAA tournament.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't recall his reaction after the match, but to be clear, I believe what Lombardi is saying(And certainly the sentiment I'm expressing) is more about how you respond to failure.

Does it push you to work harder, be better? Or do you accept it and just go about your business?

 

I think you should always respect who you're Wresting...sometimes things get heated and that's not the case, but I'm speaking about how you respond to that loss. To that sinking feeling. 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

10 hours ago, scourge165 said:

It has nothing to do with anyone else's expectations or what someone may label me. It has to do with my own competitive drive and the nature of the sport.

You've been clear about your personal value system, I acknowledge and see you (me, my). And, I don't mean to devalue what has worked for you or the basic codes you've come to live you life by.

Any disagreement lies in the generalization of your specific life experiences to others or the nature of sport (i e., competition).

Sure, fear can be a great motivator, as in the fear of failure or any of the myriad of other forms of fear-mongering we see every day.  I just don't believe it is the best motivator or that succumbing to it leads to a best life lived.

Edited April 10, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[98lberEating2Lunches]

10 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Are we REALLY arguing that what it takes to be good or great at Wrestling, to compete at the highest levels in HS, in College(at any level) that it doesn't take more work than Baseball or Basketball?

I never argued relative (unprovable) difficulty.  I pointed out there was physical risk and pain possibility (hit by pitch) in baseball that is far worse than being slammed on a mat (but then your penchant for hyperbole introduced golf).

I pointed out skills from baseball must be developed and maintained over time, thru dedication, so like wrestling, perceived improvement is necessary to maintain interest.  Baseball was just an example.  8 could've as easily used gymnastics or ice skating.

I pointed out making training "fun" helpw maintain interest, thereby increasing the likelihood of perceived improvement and continued participation in any sport.

I pointed out excessive focus on W and L (competition results) was not consistent with sustained participation by youth in a sport.

I never argued anything about some purely subjective inherent relative amount of "fun" of a particular sport.