Why Even Bother with a Wrestling Season?

[Bulldog]

It pretty much seems more and more coaches and athletes do not really want to wrestle outsdie of the big show in March anymore.  Even at most of the big time duals, the marquee matches often do not happen.

Instead of disappointng fans, let's just cut all the b-ll s--t and start with the conference tournaments, take two weeks off to rest, and then hold NCAA Finals and be done with it. 

Sheesh. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Bulldog

[Bulldog]

I should add that I am not bitter or resentful about what is happeneing.  Clearly, coaches and athletes are looking to redefine the college wrestling grind:  who they see, the length of the season, how they compete, etc...  Heck, I just listened to David Taylor in a recent podcast discuss how he is exploring new ideas in his training and competition schedules.  The writing is on the wall that those pushing to the highest levels of our sports want changes. 

For example, I think it makes great sense to move wrestling to one semester and, especially in a sport that requires intense weight management, away from Thanksgiving, Christmas, and the holidays.  I would have loved to enjoy time back at home in December, and then start getting after it in mid January.  I cannot imagne anyone who has been through such would disagree that.   

[Red Blades]

2 hours ago, Bulldog said:

I think it makes great sense to move wrestling to one semester and, especially in a sport that requires intense weight management, away from Thanksgiving, Christmas, and the holidays.  I would have loved to enjoy time back at home in December, and then start getting after it in mid January.  I cannot imagine anyone who has been through such would disagree that.   

This - Rob Koll was actively advocating to make wrestling a second semester sport while he was at Cornell, and for all I know, still does so (mail is slow from the Left Coast though, so we don't hear from him so much anymore! ;-).  Coach Grey seems to be sticking to this policy so far - Cornell's Fall Term portion of the schedule was pretty light, with CKLV being the only major tournament scheduled, and a few guys have sat out of early events.  Arguably the grind of completing Fall Term coursework and exams while training at a high level is a huge ask for student athletes.

Rob and Mizzou's Brian Smith also started the South Beach Duals a few years back with the thinking that the winter break should also provide a bit of a break for the wrestlers.  The guys would wrestle a few matches, but it was not as much of a grind as Midlands or the Scuffle; afterwards the team would stay in Florida for a week or so and train on the beach (some of the videos posted on the Cornell website were a hoot!) and enjoy the warm weather (Nice change from Central NY!).  This event seems to have morphed into the Collegiate Duals.

I think Cael Sanderson has adopted a similar approach over at Happy Valley - the BiG dual schedule is such a grind, there is no need to overload the schedule in November and December.

I expect this is a natural progression in coaching/scheduling philosophy.  Maybe it would be better to recognize it and view the schedule prior to January as "pre-season" with a few quality events, and perhaps an opportunity to shake out a lineup and get some work in for guys lower on the depth chart; but for the established veterans, look for the real season to begin in the second term.

[nhs67]

The problem with wrestling as a second semester sport, unless we condense the season rather drastically (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), is that WTT, OTT, Ranking Series Events, and last chance tournaments basically immediately start right after NCAAs.  So basically the Freestyle season begins immediately - and is rather condensed as it is.

[98lberEating2Lunches]

4 hours ago, Bulldog said:

For example, I think it makes great sense to move wrestling to one semester

I believe it's headed there team-dual schedule-wise.

I also believe it's headed toward ONLY optional developmental participation in tournaments for all first semester true freshman, including the limitation of 5 competition dates.  But that number could drop further as it applies to true freshman in their first semester.

I've read some don't agree with Iowa's new Soldier Salute tournament, but it may be more strategic than some have considered.  Anticipating the above possibility might add credence to Iowa's approach, as it can provide a late first semester whole team/true freshman competition date with substantially reduced travel expenses than other options.

Edited December 30, 2022 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I think there is a chance that limiting the number of high level matches wrestled over the course of a career may hinder some of our wrestlers development.  Yes, there may be less weight cutting and burnout, but a lot of learning takes place in matches.  This is probably more true with the younger, untested guys.  But the catch is, they probably need some matches against the studs to get maximum learning; those studs are resting.

[Dark Energy]

Wonder if the ‘grind’ would fell less crappy if we just went to mat side weigh-ins.  Take the crappiest part of wrestling - the hard weight cuts - out of the picture.  I’m no doctor but it might also help prevent injuries - less stress on body.  
 

Sorry - don’t mean to derail. But thought it was related.
 

 

 

[ionel]

7 hours ago, Bulldog said:

It pretty much seems more and more coaches and athletes do not really want to wrestle outsdie of the big show in March anymore.  Even at most of the big time duals, the marquee matches often do not happen.

Instead of disappointng fans, let's just cut all the b-ll s--t and start with the conference tournaments, take two weeks off to rest, and then hold NCAA Finals and be done with it. 

Sheesh. 

Was planning to go to Scuffle this weekend.  Appeared great team & individual matchups (eg 1, 2 & 3 @165lb).  But looking at Midlands and now similar ISU & Vtech thing at Scuffle appears it may just be a 3 team intrasquad tourney. 

It used to be you didn't have to think about whether to go to Midlands, you just booked your hotel and showed up because you knew there was going to be great team & individual competition, the best teams showed up to win, same at Scuffle except warmer temps.  Also National Duals was always the best, the top teams showed up plus got to see a few backups in the early rounds.  

Now its why even have holiday tournaments, maybe just let the kids go home and eat.  It used to be one of the points of the semester break tourneys is fans could also show up.  T&C killed the Duals, now the holiday break tournaments are slowly dying.  Maybe we need to put Bob in charge, he knows about dying but also about how to bring things back to life. 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

34 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

Wonder if the ‘grind’ would fell less crappy if we just went to mat side weigh-ins.  Take the crappiest part of wrestling - the hard weight cuts - out of the picture.  I’m no doctor but it might also help prevent injuries - less stress on body.  
 

Sorry - don’t mean to derail. But thought it was related.
 

 

 

Definitely related.  I had a great great club coach.  He said that he never saw a good wrestler burnout from wrestling, because wrestling is fun; they burnout from weight cuts.

I am not a fan of matside weigh ins, but I do not know what the actual solution is.  I think the current certification system in place could work, but teams and individuals find loopholes, grey areas,  and weaknesses in the rules and exploit them.  I understand they are trying to win, and weight cuts aren't as bad as the past, but the sport is clearly not following the spirit of the rules when it comes to weight loss.

[MNRodent]

Require a minimum number of matches to qualify for the post season and another minimum number to be seeded at nationals.  I don't know the exact numbers to suggest, maybe a minimum of 10 to qualify and 20 to be seeded.  I don't want the threshold so low that it eliminates legitimate injuries, but maybe those athletes forfeit their seed.

 

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, MNRodent said:

Require a minimum number of matches to qualify for the post season and another minimum number to be seeded at nationals.  I don't know the exact numbers to suggest, maybe a minimum of 10 to qualify and 20 to be seeded.  I don't want the threshold so low that it eliminates legitimate injuries, but maybe those athletes forfeit their seed.

 

If you MFF out of a holiday tournament you are not allowed to eat in the host city.  

[Yellow_Medal]

If you MFF out of a holiday tournament you are not allowed to eat in the host city.  

I’m really digging the extra spice from you today. Keep it coming.

[11986]

14 minutes ago, MNRodent said:

Require a minimum number of matches to qualify for the post season and another minimum number to be seeded at nationals.  I don't know the exact numbers to suggest, maybe a minimum of 10 to qualify and 20 to be seeded.  I don't want the threshold so low that it eliminates legitimate injuries, but maybe those athletes forfeit their seed.

 

agree with minimum to qualify. as for another minimum to be seeded, everyone in the bracket is seeded.  

[ionel]

32 minutes ago, Yellow_Medal said:

I’m really digging the extra spice from you today. Keep it coming.

Kids today expect instant info, instant gratification etc.  Wrestlers are always hungry, well except for HWTs thus why we have a lot of 1-0, 2-1 matches - no motivation to finish to go eat, but I regress.  What's the first thing a wrestler wants to do after a tournament, EAT! So the stick needs to be something can instantly relate to.  You want to eat before the trip home - step on the mat and take the injury loss.   

PS: this would also discourage teams like Iowa from hosting holiday tournaments in their home/host town.  Just watch the MFFs start to fly left and right at the Salute event.

Edited December 30, 2022 by ionel

[Wrestleknownothing]

48 minutes ago, ionel said:

If you MFF out of a holiday tournament you are not allowed to eat in the host city.  

So they can eat in Schaumburg.

[ionel]

11 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

So they can eat in Schaumburg.

Sure or Evanston, or swing by your house, but is the coach gonna let the bus stop there.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

PS: @Formally140 ain't giving em no ride over to Schaumburg.  

Edited December 30, 2022 by ionel

[Yellow_Medal]

Kids today expect instant info, instant gratification etc.  Wrestlers are always hungry, well except for HWTs thus why we have a lot of 1-0, 2-1 matches - no motivation to finish to go eat, but I regress.  What's the first thing a wrestler wants to do after a tournament, EAT! So the stick needs to be something can instantly relate to.  You want to eat before the trip home - step on the mat and take the injury loss.   
PS: this would also discourage teams like Iowa from hosting holiday tournaments in their home/host town.  Just watch the MFFs start to fly left and right at the Salute event.

You have me on board! When does the rules committee meet next?

[Wrestleknownothing]

18 minutes ago, ionel said:

Sure or Evanston, or swing by your house, but is the coach gonna let the bus stop there.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

PS: @Formally140 ain't giving em no ride over to Schaumburg.  

Which is a shame. The best chicken fingers in the world (you heard me) can be found in Schaumburg.

Village Tavern & Grill

[ionel]

22 minutes ago, Yellow_Medal said:

You have me on board! When does the rules committee meet next?

Tuesday evening Jan 3rd at Rendezvous in Memphis.  If we can't finish that evening we'll rap things up Wed afternoon at Central BBQ.

PS:  Implementation subcommittee will meet Wed evening at  Commisary in Collierville.

Edited December 30, 2022 by ionel

[Caveira]

Central bbq is amazing too 

[scourge165]

21 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think there is a chance that limiting the number of high level matches wrestled over the course of a career may hinder some of our wrestlers development.  Yes, there may be less weight cutting and burnout, but a lot of learning takes place in matches.  This is probably more true with the younger, untested guys.  But the catch is, they probably need some matches against the studs to get maximum learning; those studs are resting.

This was my opinion. My feeling even at the time. I wanted...35 or so matches. I KNEW I wasn't going to be anywhere close to where I needed to be early in the year.

It'd take getting down, making weight, going through that season and getting those matches in, the whole grind...I always thought I needed that to get myself ready. It's been a while, the RTCs were not on the same level, so I may feel differently, but I wanted those 7 minute matches, ESPECIALLY against Wrestlers I was a little better than where I was pushing for bonus points or just in a real, life go that meant something, a chance to test myself, my lungs, legs...maybe some OT matches. Make sure I could Wrestle any period without getting tired.

The long grind matches were helpful in practice, but that's teammates(again, the RTC being a larger part of the equation may change things). 

I think you'd see some drop off in the Wrestling in the NCAAs and more upsets as we've seen the past couple years with the limited tournaments due to Covid. But, maybe that was my own issue, I don't know. 

[H82Lose]

21 hours ago, ionel said:

Was planning to go to Scuffle this weekend.  Appeared great team & individual matchups (eg 1, 2 & 3 @165lb).  But looking at Midlands and now similar ISU & Vtech thing at Scuffle appears it may just be a 3 team intrasquad tourney. 

It used to be you didn't have to think about whether to go to Midlands, you just booked your hotel and showed up because you knew there was going to be great team & individual competition, the best teams showed up to win, same at Scuffle except warmer temps.  Also National Duals was always the best, the top teams showed up plus got to see a few backups in the early rounds.  

Now its why even have holiday tournaments, maybe just let the kids go home and eat.  It used to be one of the points of the semester break tourneys is fans could also show up.  T&C killed the Duals, now the holiday break tournaments are slowly dying.  Maybe we need to put Bob in charge, he knows about dying but also about how to bring things back to life. 

 

I have said this many times, and this is a great point.  Take it further, little Johnny who is 8, wanted to go watch the scuffle to watch his favorite wrestlers. Mom and Dad save up, this is a mini vacation and let's face it wrestling is not cheap to watch, and none of little Johnny's heroes are there.  Complete dud. How do you grow this sport by doing this? Is it the weight cuts, is it I don't want to give that guy a look more than once? Pretty frustrating overall. 

[wrestlingphish]

23 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think there is a chance that limiting the number of high level matches wrestled over the course of a career may hinder some of our wrestlers development.  Yes, there may be less weight cutting and burnout, but a lot of learning takes place in matches.  This is probably more true with the younger, untested guys.  But the catch is, they probably need some matches against the studs to get maximum learning; those studs are resting.

Our highest level wrestlers are adapting a more Russian style of training. If only our youth culture would adapt. Less matches, better practice, greater levels of success.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

Our highest level wrestlers are adapting a more Russian style of training. If only our youth culture would adapt. Less matches, better practice, greater levels of success.

The Russian style of training also includes some special supplements.  I would take every one of their training methods into question as a result.  Not to mention "age cheating" at lower levels...

Also, the entire makeup of athletics as a whole over there pretty much eliminates doing stuff the way we do it over here.  

I agree that youth kids and high school wrestle way too many matches, but getting college guys 30+ matches a year doesn't seem so bad.  These matches provide data about a wrestler facing an unfamiliar opponent with an unfamiliar feel.

[wrestlingphish]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

The Russian style of training also includes some special supplements.  I would take every one of their training methods into question as a result. 

 

Yeah, sort of reminds me of the pattern we are seeing out of Okie State at the international level