scourge165 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 On 1/1/2023 at 10:32 AM, 98lberEating2Lunches said: Same happens for youth baseball where weight cutting isn't a thing. I think it has more to do with kid's desire for more instant gratification, along with their reticence to commit to longer term skills development at a young age. It takes parental guidance and fun (not tedious practice that seems like work) to overcome. Some crazy parents do it right. Others seek out and leave it to the right kind of coaches (hence club$). I used HATE going to a practice...at my Club, HS, Camps, wherever...and drilling for 45 minutes. I didn't mind conditioning, but(this is going back 20+ years now) but just 10 single legs, 10 high crotches, 10... The best coaches would have you do that, then we'd Wrestle situations. Start in on a double, whistle, wrestle live from there. And then the live Wrestling was just fun. Especially if you had good workout partners and you could open up, try new things. And you need to drill. You need to drill until it becomes second nature that when a guy steps one way, you hit this shot, to hit that double off a re-shot. It's muscle memory, but it's not fun. The Wrestling part is fun. Wrestling is tough, that's why you have trouble retaining kids. Basketball is easy. That's why they don't have as much trouble. That's my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 1 hour ago, scourge165 said: I actually think Wrestling is doing pretty well and having a bit of a renaissance, but it's never going to be Basketball or Football or even Baseball. It's not "fun" like those sports are. In order for it to be fun, you've gotta have success or at least be getting better. That requires a LOT of work. I don't think it's a victim, I just don't see how you're going to get it to the level of mass appeal that Basketball and Football has. And I really don't get the "tuff guy superiority" statement. I wish everyone Wrestled. There are a lot of great athletes and Burroughs started Wrestling when he was in like 1st or 2nd grade. So his story isn't exactly like Lee Kemp's where he didn't start until HS and was barely .500 until his last two years. It's the greatest sport in the world IMO, but we've tried professional Wresting leagues we've tried to market it on different levels. It IS a niche sport and I don't think it's because the ADs just care that much more about BB and FB, I think they care more about FB and BB because it generates more revenue. As for the regular season...I like the idea that you need X number of regular season matches to qualify, X number to get seeded...provided you leave a little leeway for legitimate injuries. Like seeding, it shouldn't be absolute. Brayton Lee(hypothetically) shouldn't have been punished had he come back this year from that gruesome injury and been punished. But you could iron that out. Again. You miss the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 32 minutes ago, Formally140 said: Again. You miss the point Then why don't you try to articulate it more clearly for me. What point exactly am I missing? How do YOU propose we make a sport like Wrestling anywhere near the level of popularity of Basketball or Football and how does it make me a victim to simply not agree that our sport can reach that level of popularity? How does it make me a "tuff guy" to believe Wrestling...is in fact a niche sport? How does not wanting your "prodigy" lose to a guy like Jordan Burroughs make it a niche sport and I don't get what a "guy like Jordan Burroughs is." Maybe I missed the point you made. So, lets try again. Tell me what I got wrong or what point I missed? You can make a point or just tell me I'm not getting it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 10 hours ago, scourge165 said: Then why don't you try to articulate it more clearly for me. What point exactly am I missing? How do YOU propose we make a sport like Wrestling anywhere near the level of popularity of Basketball or Football and how does it make me a victim to simply not agree that our sport can reach that level of popularity? How does it make me a "tuff guy" to believe Wrestling...is in fact a niche sport? How does not wanting your "prodigy" lose to a guy like Jordan Burroughs make it a niche sport and I don't get what a "guy like Jordan Burroughs is." Maybe I missed the point you made. So, lets try again. Tell me what I got wrong or what point I missed? You can make a point or just tell me I'm not getting it. It’s stuck in niche sport status because our people weren’t proactive and didn’t think big picture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 52 minutes ago, Formally140 said: It’s stuck in niche sport status because our people weren’t proactive and didn’t think big picture. Ok...well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 7 minutes ago, scourge165 said: Ok...well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. That’s fine. You like being a contrarian. And I don’t feel like getting into the nitty gritty history of college athletics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
98lberEating2Lunches Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, scourge165 said: And you need to drill. I agree that there is no substitute for proper repetitions when it comes to longterm skill development and establishing muscle memory. I believe there is opportunity to vary "drills" and make them fun, regardless of sport. 15 hours ago, scourge165 said: Wrestling is tough, that's why you have trouble retaining kids. Pitching (holding runners while locating and varying pitches) is tough. Hitting a curveball is tough. Except for taking a fastball to the small of one's back or running into a fence/wall to make a catch, baseball doesn't approach the same degree of physical toughness as wrestling. And yet baseball involves difficult skills that take years to master and retain, if one hopes to consistently succeed against age-group peers. Physically immature kids of the same weight will tend to struggle against physically mature kids at the same weight. It doesn't matter the sport. But this factor doesn't average out in an individual competition, like wrestling, as it can in a team competition, like baseball. I believe kids tend drop out of sports when they don't have success in comparison to their competitors over some period of time. The upper limit might be two seasons. Perceiving improvement accompanied by success goes a long way to make things fun. Kids need the right mindset and longterm vision to maintain their enthusiasm over periods where they lack perceived improvement and success. I believe necessary motivation, resilience, and skill development must come from the youth participant and their supporters (e.g., parents, coaches, teammates). So I agree with your earlier assertion, "In order for it to be fun, you've gotta have success or at least be getting better." Edited April 6, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHROMEBIRD Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 Hasn't participation in youth sports in general gone down over the last 20 years? I don't doubt that success rate (which affects enjoyment) is a factor but so have concerns from parents about cost, safety (CTE), and their own time commitment. Plus kids get a lot of stimulation and gratification from video games. But, I digress. D1 wrestling needs to fix its RPI algorithm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 6 hours ago, Formally140 said: That’s fine. You like being a contrarian. And I don’t feel like getting into the nitty gritty history of college athletics Yeah...that's what this is. Wrestling would be different if the ADs just pushed it. It's not that Basketball appeals to the masses because most kids play...or Baseball or Football, it's the "nitty gritty history of college athletics," that you get...that I just don't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 wrestling is hard... people are soft in this country... that is really all there is to it... 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 3 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said: Pitching (holding runners while locating and varying pitches) is tough. Hitting a curveball is tough. Except for taking a fastball to the small of one's back or running into a fence/wall to make a catch, baseball doesn't approach the same degree of physical toughness as wrestling. And yet baseball involves difficult skills that take years to master and retain, if one hopes to consistently succeed against age-group peers. It's also difficult to his a Golf Ball 300 yards down the fairway. If you fail at that though, you're not getting your head shoved into the mat, slammed on your ass or out there, fighting off your back in front of everyone(and that's after you get past practice). How many of your friends did you think could make it through a Wrestling practice in HS? Aside from your Wrestling friends? 3 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said: I agree that there is no substitute for proper repetitions when it comes to longterm skill development and establishing muscle memory. I believe there is opportunity to vary "drills" and make them fun, regardless of sport. I don't see how you can make teaching and then learning a double, single or all the basics that go into Wrestling "fun." I see how playing catch is fun or shagging fly balls, or taking batting practice. Wrestling is a hard, physical sport and...a lot of kids just don't like what it takes to get through the season, much less be great. We had tons of athletes coming out, but those first couple weeks in HS...where you need to build up your legs. Hardly the most intense practices, but we'd ALWAYS go from ~70 some and we'd be down to ~55 by the first duel and it went down from there. In Middle School, it seemed like almost everyone went out, but that's because it was popular in the area I was in. I never actually wrestled on the JHS team, but I'd go and see a lot of kids, and I guess they were having fun. But, the higher you go, the most physical the sport gets(and I'm not even talking about the best kids right now, I'm talking about the kids who aren't going to Fargo and doing all of that) -the most of a beating you take vs better Wrestlers...it just thinned out so quickly. And you can't exactly hide. In Football, you can just be soft and you don't play. In Wrestling, you're going to get exposed. And this is all without addressing the weight cutting. So when I say tough, I mean, mentally, physically tough, not the skill required. You're not pushing your body in those other sports to the limit like you are in Wrestling. 4 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said: So I agree with your earlier assertion, "In order for it to be fun, you've gotta have success or at least be getting better." Yeah, that's what was fun. Again, live Wrestling is also fun and I mentioned how my coaches would try to make some of the drilling fun(situational Wrestling, start in on a double and you Wrestle live, start in on a head inside single...etc..). But I think Wrestling is just unique in what is demands of you. Again though, while I don't think it's plausible that it could or ever was going to approach Basketball or Football level popularity, I don't agree with this premise that it's in a worse place or getting worse. It feels like Wrestling's in a good spot right now...again, in large part due to MMA helping make Wrestling a little bit more mainstream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 19 minutes ago, LJB said: wrestling is hard... people are soft in this country... that is really all there is to it... Huh...I usually get to just skip over these now with the "ignore this users posts," but...this is not...not-true. Not sure it's unique to this Country. Most of the Countries OUTSIDE of the US that have a lot of success in Wrestling are Countries that people grow up very different and live a much tougher life. The Eastern Bloc, Iran, the Cubans...couple of outliers, but sure, kids come up much tougher in a lot of the countries where Wrestling is big. They don't have the option of sitting in their room drinking Monster Energy...whatever and live streaming their stupid video games. I respect everyone that's guts to step out onto the mat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 11 minutes ago, scourge165 said: Huh...I usually get to just skip over these now with the "ignore this users posts," but...this is not...not-true. Not sure it's unique to this Country. Most of the Countries OUTSIDE of the US that have a lot of success in Wrestling are Countries that people grow up very different and live a much tougher life. The Eastern Bloc, Iran, the Cubans...couple of outliers, but sure, kids come up much tougher in a lot of the countries where Wrestling is big. They don't have the option of sitting in their room drinking Monster Energy...whatever and live streaming their stupid video games. I respect everyone that's guts to step out onto the mat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 17 minutes ago, scourge165 said: It's also difficult to his a Golf Ball 300 yards down the fairway. If you fail at that though, you're not getting your head shoved into the mat, slammed on your ass or out there, fighting off your back in front of everyone(and that's after you get past practice). How many of your friends did you think could make it through a Wrestling practice in HS? Aside from your Wrestling friends? I don't see how you can make teaching and then learning a double, single or all the basics that go into Wrestling "fun." I see how playing catch is fun or shagging fly balls, or taking batting practice. Wrestling is a hard, physical sport and...a lot of kids just don't like what it takes to get through the season, much less be great. We had tons of athletes coming out, but those first couple weeks in HS...where you need to build up your legs. Hardly the most intense practices, but we'd ALWAYS go from ~70 some and we'd be down to ~55 by the first duel and it went down from there. In Middle School, it seemed like almost everyone went out, but that's because it was popular in the area I was in. I never actually wrestled on the JHS team, but I'd go and see a lot of kids, and I guess they were having fun. But, the higher you go, the most physical the sport gets(and I'm not even talking about the best kids right now, I'm talking about the kids who aren't going to Fargo and doing all of that) -the most of a beating you take vs better Wrestlers...it just thinned out so quickly. And you can't exactly hide. In Football, you can just be soft and you don't play. In Wrestling, you're going to get exposed. And this is all without addressing the weight cutting. So when I say tough, I mean, mentally, physically tough, not the skill required. You're not pushing your body in those other sports to the limit like you are in Wrestling. Yeah, that's what was fun. Again, live Wrestling is also fun and I mentioned how my coaches would try to make some of the drilling fun(situational Wrestling, start in on a double and you Wrestle live, start in on a head inside single...etc..). But I think Wrestling is just unique in what is demands of you. Again though, while I don't think it's plausible that it could or ever was going to approach Basketball or Football level popularity, I don't agree with this premise that it's in a worse place or getting worse. It feels like Wrestling's in a good spot right now...again, in large part due to MMA helping make Wrestling a little bit more mainstream. If you don’t understand how there are ways to make wrestling fun and somewhere the kids want to be… that shows either massive ignorance and/or incompetence 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted April 6, 2023 Share Posted April 6, 2023 Just now, Formally140 said: If you don’t understand how there are ways to make wrestling fun and somewhere the kids want to be… that shows either massive ignorance and/or incompetence it isn't rocket science... and even some psycho dads taking their kids all over the country and planet have figured it out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 5 minutes ago, Formally140 said: If you don’t understand how there are ways to make wrestling fun and somewhere the kids want to be… that shows either massive ignorance and/or incompetence Well...I guess you're our savior then! You can solve the issue almost nobody else has been able to. You've learned how to make all parts of Wrestling fun! The Drilling, the running, the weight cutting, the grind, the surgeries that you'll invariably have as you move up the ladder...so you and Lyndon Baines get together, work this shit out and lets watch as Wrestling signs a 111 BILLION dollar TV deal for 10 years like the NFL just did. Shouldn't take much more than 10, maybe 20 years! Get to...I'll be the first one cheering you on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 truth... all anyone has to do is just make it happen... it's easy, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 8 minutes ago, LJB said: truth... all anyone has to do is just make it happen... it's easy, right? Apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 100% full disclosure... i know i got a rep here and every where else i go... but the truth of the matter is my boys loved wrestling since the day they stepped on the mat... one pulled too much weight... the other couldn't pull at all... they both made all their own decisions on where and what weight since they have been 12... they did not get grounded as a punishment when they were young... they didn't get to go to the tourney that weekend... by the time they were 10 and 12 they refused to go to locals... there was just no point... we had to travel, so, that is just what we did... i never cared about results at all... only effort... if either them didn't give maximum effort i had no problem telling them that... some people are literally drawn to this sport because of how hard it is... this sport is not for everyone and i am totally ok with that... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 8 minutes ago, LJB said: 100% full disclosure... i know i got a rep here and every where else i go... but the truth of the matter is my boys loved wrestling since the day they stepped on the mat... one pulled too much weight... the other couldn't pull at all... they both made all their own decisions on where and what weight since they have been 12... they did not get grounded as a punishment when they were young... they didn't get to go to the tourney that weekend... by the time they were 10 and 12 they refused to go to locals... there was just no point... we had to travel, so, that is just what we did... i never cared about results at all... only effort... if either them didn't give maximum effort i had no problem telling them that... some people are literally drawn to this sport because of how hard it is... this sport is not for everyone and i am totally ok with that... We've actually got some things in common. If I got into trouble, that was my punishment as well. I can only hope my kids will enjoy the sport as much that it'll be a punishment...but who knows if they'll enjoy it at all. I've seen the Sons of some wrestlers go out for the sport and just stay out because they THINK it's expected of them and then, particularly if their Dad was extremely accomplished. I loved Wrestling in the Tournaments, but again, the work that it takes to get there is different in Wrestling than other sports. It's rewarding more than "fun" in my opinion. It's different than getting ready for a game on Friday Night(which I also loved). If someone really does have a way to make ALL that goes into becoming a Wrestler "fun," I'd genuinely love to hear it...because a lot of the guys I started with quit along the way. I know ways to make SOME of the shitty parts more fun, but...I don't see away around it, you've gotta put your body through a lot to Wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, scourge165 said: We've actually got some things in common. If I got into trouble, that was my punishment as well. I can only hope my kids will enjoy the sport as much that it'll be a punishment...but who knows if they'll enjoy it at all. I've seen the Sons of some wrestlers go out for the sport and just stay out because they THINK it's expected of them and then, particularly if their Dad was extremely accomplished. I loved Wrestling in the Tournaments, but again, the work that it takes to get there is different in Wrestling than other sports. It's rewarding more than "fun" in my opinion. It's different than getting ready for a game on Friday Night(which I also loved). If someone really does have a way to make ALL that goes into becoming a Wrestler "fun," I'd genuinely love to hear it...because a lot of the guys I started with quit along the way. I know ways to make SOME of the shitty parts more fun, but...I don't see away around it, you've gotta put your body through a lot to Wrestle. my kids love to practice... but... the moment either of them said i want to take a break for a couple of days or a week or whatever then they did... my youngest was sik after coming back from Estonia so he couldn't wrestle for a couple of days this week... i walked into the gym and he was in the sauna with his face pressed against the glass watching his boys get to roll... it killed him... now... how much of that is nature or nurture? i know there was no whining in my house at all... you got made fun of mercilessly if tried to whine... my kids have seen every part of me broken all the years i raced... no whining... ever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 51 minutes ago, scourge165 said: Well...I guess you're our savior then! You can solve the issue almost nobody else has been able to. You've learned how to make all parts of Wrestling fun! The Drilling, the running, the weight cutting, the grind, the surgeries that you'll invariably have as you move up the ladder...so you and Lyndon Baines get together, work this shit out and lets watch as Wrestling signs a 111 BILLION dollar TV deal for 10 years like the NFL just did. Shouldn't take much more than 10, maybe 20 years! Get to...I'll be the first one cheering you on. Not “every” part. Since I know you’re pedantic whiner who latches onto the littlest word to hang on to your arguments But I’ve done it enough to get kids to stay.. and there’s plenty of coaches much better at it than me.. and since you have an extremely old school school attitude bout da grind. Is what it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scourge165 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 Just now, Formally140 said: Not “every” part. Since I know you’re pedantic whiner who latches onto the littlest word to hang on to your arguments But I’ve done it enough to get kids to stay.. and there’s plenty of coaches much better at it than me.. and since you have an extremely old school school attitude bout da grind. Is what it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, scourge165 said: Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJB Posted April 7, 2023 Share Posted April 7, 2023 some embrace the suk and if you want to compete with people like that you better to... it isn't about it being fun... quite the opposite... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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