Dual Team Scorimg Discussion

[Formally140]

Decided to post here and not the HS thread so hopefully it gets traction. I think we need to make dual meet team scoring much more simple for a host of reasons.
 

I’ve more and more come around to “a point scored is a point earned” type of idea. Basically if a match ends 10-2. The team score is 10-2. Add 10-15 points for pins. I think simplicity and an extra incentive for athletes to score points are greatly needed. 
 

I think people forget how convoluted and weird normal team points can seem to an outsider.

I don’t want to overload the first post. But I do ask people actually discuss ideas and not just cover their ears and scream 
 

[Formally140]

Mods can I edit the title please

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Mods can I edit the title please

nope ... should've thought about that 15 min ago ... Bob's got better things to do with his eternity than deal with folks who can't type & spell.  

[Formally140]

Just now, ionel said:

nope ... should've thought about that 15 min ago ... Bob's got better things to do with his eternity than deal with folks who can't type & spell.  

That’s for former presidential candidate Bob Dole to decide. I of course will abide by his decision as.. I don’t really care that much. 

And I do this forum when not busy with work or other things. Hence why I missed the error in the title. An occasional typo is going to happen. 
 

 

[ionel]

27 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

That’s for former presidential candidate Bob Dole to decide. I of course will abide by his decision as.. I don’t really care that much. 

And I do this forum when not busy with work or other things. Hence why I missed the error in the title. An occasional typo is going to happen. 
 

 

I'm in the same boat, sometimes post prior to other event, work, travel, find out 30 min/couple hours latter that put too many Os in Boob's name, but he is a 15 min guy.  

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, Formally140 said:

Decided to post here and not the HS thread so hopefully it gets traction. I think we need to make dual meet team scoring much more simple for a host of reasons.
 

I’ve more and more come around to “a point scored is a point earned” type of idea. Basically if a match ends 10-2. The team score is 10-2. Add 10-15 points for pins. I think simplicity and an extra incentive for athletes to score points are greatly needed. 
 

I think people forget how convoluted and weird normal team points can seem to an outsider.

I don’t want to overload the first post. But I do ask people actually discuss ideas and not just cover their ears and scream 
 

This would make dual scoring much closer to tournament scoring. You could win a dual with just a few dominant wrestlers.

Some may have a problem with that less for tradition reasons and more for "upsets are fun" reasons.

[Formally140]

Just now, Wrestleknownothing said:

This would make dual scoring much closer to tournament scoring. You could win a dual with just a few dominant wrestlers.

Some may have a problem with that less for tradition reasons and more for "upsets are fun" reasons.

I’m well aware. I probably would have lost a dual I won recently if they changed the rules. But I still think it would help especially with fans. 
 

I also would like to do dual meets with 11 or 13 weights. 14 for tournaments. Criteria

1. Weights with matches MUST be wrestled first 

2. alternating picks by coach of weight class

minimize forfeits without actually cutting weights

[Ban Basketball]

43 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

That’s for former presidential candidate Bob Dole to decide. 

I remember that candidacy!  I proudly sported one of his campaign shirts- still own it- in the day. 

[Caveira]

7 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

This would make dual scoring much closer to tournament scoring. You could win a dual with just a few dominant wrestlers.

Some may have a problem with that less for tradition reasons and more for "upsets are fun" reasons.

So

team a gets 9 1-0 victories 

team b wins 1 match 15-0

does team b win 15-9?

I think that’s game over…. Never gonna happen.  

[Mr. PeanutButter]

It's a neat idea, I was for it for a few minutes until I thought of the scenarios that others have pointed out. 

How about: 1 point for a decision, 2 for a major, 3 for tech, 4 for a pin. Really puts a premium on the pins, which I think is a good thing

[Jason Bryant]

16 minutes ago, Caveira said:

So

team a gets 9 1-0 victories 

team b wins 1 match 15-0

does team b win 15-9?

I think that’s game over…. Never gonna happen.  

That scenario ... will never happen unless it's gamed to be that way and if it's gamed that way, someone (more than one) should be fired. Good luck finding ANY scenario (we've looked) where you have 9 one-point decisions vs. one fall. Just doesn't happen. Won't happen despite it being statistically possible. 

I like point scored and a fall is 20. Yes, there CAN be a 22-point tech fall, but again, you're looking to create some safeguard for the statistical anomaly. Right now, 4 wins can beat 6, 3 cannot beat 7. 3 COULD beat 7 if you get three falls and the rest of the offense is a dude, but hey, you know the rules, you want to win the match, score points. 

Let's NOT not do something because of the chances to get struck by lightning. 

[Preceptor]

To simplify the majority of duals just give 1 point for a victory. Then if a dual is tied, 5-5 for college or 7-7 for high school, then you use the criteria of the current point system. 
 

Simple, easy to follow, and makes sense to a casual fan. 

[Formally140]

1 hour ago, Jason Bryant said:

That scenario ... will never happen unless it's gamed to be that way and if it's gamed that way, someone (more than one) should be fired. Good luck finding ANY scenario (we've looked) where you have 9 one-point decisions vs. one fall. Just doesn't happen. Won't happen despite it being statistically possible. 

I like point scored and a fall is 20. Yes, there CAN be a 22-point tech fall, but again, you're looking to create some safeguard for the statistical anomaly. Right now, 4 wins can beat 6, 3 cannot beat 7. 3 COULD beat 7 if you get three falls and the rest of the offense is a dude, but hey, you know the rules, you want to win the match, score points. 

Let's NOT not do something because of the chances to get struck by lightning. 

I think it will naturally encourage matches to be more exciting as well

[boconnell]

I love every once in a while when someone comes up with an idea to help the casual wrestling fan. 

When I finally meet a casual wrestling fan, that person better be super grateful.

[stealyphil223]

Look at average high school dual results, matches end in a pin 80% of the time.  

[Caveira]

1 hour ago, Jason Bryant said:

That scenario ... will never happen unless it's gamed to be that way and if it's gamed that way, someone (more than one) should be fired. Good luck finding ANY scenario (we've looked) where you have 9 one-point decisions vs. one fall. Just doesn't happen. Won't happen despite it being statistically possible. 

I like point scored and a fall is 20. Yes, there CAN be a 22-point tech fall, but again, you're looking to create some safeguard for the statistical anomaly. Right now, 4 wins can beat 6, 3 cannot beat 7. 3 COULD beat 7 if you get three falls and the rest of the offense is a dude, but hey, you know the rules, you want to win the match, score points. 

Let's NOT not do something because of the chances to get struck by lightning. 

Your right it’s extremely statistically improbable.   What would a rule change like this do ?    We aren’t going to attract random non-wrestling fans cause scoring is cooler/easier/what not.

[Preceptor]

12 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I love every once in a while when someone comes up with an idea to help the casual wrestling fan. 

When I finally meet a casual wrestling fan, that person better be super grateful.

Today’s casual fan is tomorrows fanatic. 

[Jason Bryant]

Your right it’s extremely statistically improbable.   What would a rule change like this do ?    We aren’t going to attract random non-wrestling fans cause scoring is cooler/easier/what not.

Until dual meet results actually mean something tangible, it won’t even matter. Also, I was a random fan once who went to a dual meet.

6-5-4-3 is so arbitrary. I’ve yet to read anything historical that can actually justify how it started and stayed implemented. We just added scoring types but didn’t change the scoring method.

What would the rule change do? Maybe make duals a better experience. It’s not breaking something. It’s freshening it up and evolving. Even the NBA added a 3-point shot once upon a time. NFL added the 2-point conversion and changed OT rules. Good products change, too.

[Formally140]

49 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Your right it’s extremely statistically improbable.   What would a rule change like this do ?    We aren’t going to attract random non-wrestling fans cause scoring is cooler/easier/what not.

I had a dual meet come down to one team point the other day. My parents were naturally curious as how it worked and when you actually explain the current setup. It can get convoluted real quick

[Eagle26]

I know Schalles and others have been advocating for this for decades. I have mixed feelings. I like the emphasis on scoring points, but there could be unintended consequences. The biggest one I think is that we are now rewarding mismatches in skill level even more and the strategy will turn to trying to get your best guys on kids they will tech or pin. So we will see even more bumping and ducking. We need to find a way to incentivize putting your best wrestler on their best wrestler. That will make the duals more exciting… not a bunch of mismatches and easy pins.

[Formally140]

8 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I know Schalles and others have been advocating for this for decades. I have mixed feelings. I like the emphasis on scoring points, but there could be unintended consequences. The biggest one I think is that we are now rewarding mismatches in skill level even more and the strategy will turn to trying to get your best guys on kids they will tech or pin. So we will see even more bumping and ducking. We need to find a way to incentivize putting your best wrestler on their best wrestler. That will make the duals more exciting… not a bunch of mismatches and easy pins.

That’s why I also talked about using 11 weights in the dual meets. There’s no perfect way to avoid ducks

[Jason Bryant]

From a college perspective, the "bump" is extremely rare at this level. Outside of Iowa State's bump at Collegiate Duals, we rarely see it. Most recent examples that weren't to avoid forfeits are when Rivera bumped up to wrestle Micic and Gross bumped up to wrestle Meredith. High school is already fraught with bumps, even with the current system. I think the qualification system with requiring matches at the weight is a deterrent. 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Jason Bryant

[Eagle26]

6 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

From a college perspective, the "bump" is extremely rare at this level. Outside of Iowa State's bump at Collegiate Duals, we rarely see it. Most recent examples that weren't to avoid forfeits are when Rivera bumped up to wrestle Micic and Gross bumped up to wrestle Meredith. High school is already fraught with bumps, even with the current system. I think the qualification system with requiring matches at the weight is a deterrent. 

Yes, high school is already bad for bumping. I do fear it could get worse though. I think the main reason college isn’t as bad is that they simply don’t care as much about winning duals. The main rule change we need to see to prevent this would be to coaches submit their lineup before the dual. Maybe that would allow the new scoring proposal to work?

[1032004]

We talked about this on the old forum. I don’t like it.  Sure, 6-5-4-3 is arbitrary but I think it works in determining who the better team was that day.  And you’d still need an a arbitrary amount for a pin with this.

And yes, the 9 1-0 matches vs 1 pin scenario isn’t going to happen, but something like 1 team winning 7 matches with an average margin of victory of 7 but losing 50-49 because they lost 2 by pin and 1 by 10 definitely could (I found 1 or 2 examples just in the past couple yesrs in the last thread)

I don’t see how it would even be much if any easier to understand for fans.  In high school many duals will end up with ~250+ total team points

[Jason Bryant]

Then leave high school alone. We have different rules for various levels of wrestling, as many sports do. HS postseasons aren’t the same as the college postseason.