"Cowboy Screw Job"

[nhs67]

10 minutes ago, TheDFP said:

Got PA covered.  Scott has Western, DT has Central and Oliver has Eastern.    Pretty good recipe for success?  

I was saying I would take Oliver instead of Scott.

[NearSideCradle]

57 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

So the answer is technically two.

2023: 2W - 3L
2022: 3W - 2L
2021: 3W - 2L
2020: 4W - 1L (beat VTech)
2019: 41 - 1L (beat VTech)
2018: 3W - 2L
2017: 3W - 2L
2016: 2W - 3L (lost to Duke)

and in the tournament, zero

2023 - 4th
2022 - 4th
2021 - 3rd
2020 - 3rd
2019 - 3rd
2018 - 3rd
2017 - 5th
2016 - 3rd

and never beat NC State 

[BuckyBadger]

Think Scott can convince his wife to go to Hofstra?

[MidniteToka]

On 5/6/2024 at 10:31 AM, BobDole said:

Even if Coleman got an AHC job he would likely be gone as soon as a solid head coaching job opened up. He'll be the first name that pops up on any job opening until he gets with another top tier program.

The thing you have to wonder about is how are the wrestlers taking this? You think the staff is going to have minimal changes, then they pull this on you and you aren't sure who will be coming back.

Can I give Bob Dole a Bob Dole emoji?

Or would that be a wrestling forum faux pas?

[ionel]

14 minutes ago, MidniteToka said:

Can I give Bob Dole a Bob Dole emoji?

Or would that be a wrestling forum faux pas?

If you give a BobDole and a Poopy its kindve like the old wtf.

 

But its always good to throw in a banana or two.   

Edited May 7 by ionel

[pcostilow]

I hate saying this because I like Alex Clemsen, but Maryland would be a great fit. He would theoretically already have recruiting connections in the area, and he could take that program to a new level.

[nhs67]

8 hours ago, pcostilow said:

I hate saying this because I like Alex Clemsen, but Maryland would be a great fit. He would theoretically already have recruiting connections in the area, and he could take that program to a new level.

Snyder and/or Brooks are taking that job in a couple years, so no point in going there and having the same thing happen again.

[jackwebster]

How old is Flynn?

[TexRef]

1 hour ago, jackwebster said:

How old is Flynn?

I like Flynn and what he is doing at WV, but you might be onto something. 

[SunDevil]

DT is a huge hire. I’m disappointed Chris Pendleton wasn’t more in the mix. Maybe he wasn’t interested. But would like to see schools take care of their own. And Pendleton is such a great coach. He deserves one of the top jobs in the country. If I’m being honest, wish he had taken over at ASU when he left for Oregon. 

[alex1fly]

7 minutes ago, SunDevil said:

DT is a huge hire. I’m disappointed Chris Pendleton wasn’t more in the mix. Maybe he wasn’t interested. But would like to see schools take care of their own. And Pendleton is such a great coach. He deserves one of the top jobs in the country. If I’m being honest, wish he had taken over at ASU when he left for Oregon. 

It'd be really interesting if a bunch of Smith's wrestlers-turned-coaches joined the same staff. I'd have another team to root for! Lol

[cangemi]

I member as a kid I use to say to my dad it's not fair. Always hit me. " whoever told you life is fair lief to you"

It's all about recruiting, NIL and truth be told Taylor bigger name and Coleman 8 years removed Olympics.

He did a good job coaching and handles him self well. He will end up on his feet.

Feel bad for Coleman but they had to consider program first.

 

[fishbane]

On 5/7/2024 at 1:02 PM, 1032004 said:

Thanks for the research.  Point being he couldn’t even place better than 3rd most years in the ACC, and never won it.  He’s a good coach, but OK State wants more than just a good coach.  Taylor may have a lower floor if he completely flames out as an NCAA coach, but obviously the ceiling is much higher.

UNC finished 3rd with a record of 3-2 in ACC duals this year under Rob Koll.  Would you have the same assessment of him as a head coach?

When national championship winning coaches have had the head position at smaller programs they have had good results, but results that wouldn't put them in contention for a team trophy.  This is true of Brands when he was at VT, Zalesky at Oregon State, and Ryan at Hofstra.  I don't think Scott's coaching record at UNC is an indication that he would not be successful at OSU.

On the other hand many coaches that have produced extraordinary results at small programs like Flynn st Edinboro and Cody at AU have had difficulty duplicating those results when they have moved to bigger programs.  Some have also had success like Joe Seay.  

[1032004]

52 minutes ago, fishbane said:

UNC finished 3rd with a record of 3-2 in ACC duals this year under Rob Koll.  Would you have the same assessment of him as a head coach?

When national championship winning coaches have had the head position at smaller programs they have had good results, but results that wouldn't put them in contention for a team trophy.  This is true of Brands when he was at VT, Zalesky at Oregon State, and Ryan at Hofstra.  I don't think Scott's coaching record at UNC is an indication that he would not be successful at OSU.

On the other hand many coaches that have produced extraordinary results at small programs like Flynn st Edinboro and Cody at AU have had difficulty duplicating those results when they have moved to bigger programs.  Some have also had success like Joe Seay.  

Define successful in regards to Scott’s potential at OSU.  Consistently near the top 10 and sometimes in the top 5?  Sure.  But the consensus seems to be Taylor gives them much higher potential than that.

Rob Koll in his first year (especially since classes had already started when he got the job) is not a fair comparison, but I know you know that.

I think it’s fair to bring up Scott’s performance in the ACC since neither NC State or VT were historically powerhouse programs, and they and UNC have similar resources in general.  While Scott is a good coach, most probably would have only considered him at best the 3rd best coach in the ACC.

 

[nhs67]

16 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Define successful in regards to Scott’s potential at OSU.  Consistently near the top 10 and sometimes in the top 5?  Sure.  But the consensus seems to be Taylor gives them much higher potential than that.

Rob Koll in his first year (especially since classes had already started when he got the job) is not a fair comparison, but I know you know that.

I think it’s fair to bring up Scott’s performance in the ACC since neither NC State or VT were historically powerhouse programs, and they and UNC have similar resources in general.  While Scott is a good coach, most probably would have only considered him at best the 3rd best coach in the ACC.

 

Tied for third, at that.  Or at least on the same tier as Pitt's Gavin and maybe even UVA's Garland.

Before he went to OSU there isn't a single unbiased soul that would put him on the same tier as Pat Pop or Robie.

Now he is suddenly on the same tier as Smith?  GTFOH right?

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

UNC finished 3rd with a record of 3-2 in ACC duals this year under Rob Koll.  Would you have the same assessment of him as a head coach?

Give him a year or two with his own recruits.  Add in the Portal and they will be contending with 5-0 to 3-2 in duals (depending on the year) rather than 3-2 to 1-4 which was the standard for Scott at UNC.

Edit: Also, quit ignoring the fact that he started after students even reported and had to use the team that was left to him by Scott... so again... 3-2 was high end for Scott.

Edited May 9 by nhs67

[1032004]

Pyle says on FRL that Scott was not the first call to take the Associate HC position last year, but the first person declined because they were not given real assurances of getting the HC job.

[Winners Circle]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Pyle says on FRL that Scott was not the first call to take the Associate HC position last year, but the first person declined because they were not given real assurances of getting the HC job.

Yea. Once again Mr. Pastry was trolling with the OP.

[1032004]

10 minutes ago, Winners Circle said:

Yea. Once again Mr. Pastry was trolling with the OP.

He is a troll but there were quite a few people that thought he was promised the job 

[nhs67]

15 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

He is a troll but there were quite a few people that thought he was promised the job 

That's as may be, but obviously even if it was true it wasn't and is irrelevant at this point to anybody who cares for OSU Wrestling.

[ionel]

25 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

He is a troll but there were quite a few people that thought he was promised the job 

and several who explained why that wasn't possible.  

[NM1965]

On 5/8/2024 at 2:15 PM, SunDevil said:

DT is a huge hire. I’m disappointed Chris Pendleton wasn’t more in the mix. Maybe he wasn’t interested. But would like to see schools take care of their own. And Pendleton is such a great coach. He deserves one of the top jobs in the country. If I’m being honest, wish he had taken over at ASU when he left for Oregon. 

Pendleton is a great coach, but he doesn't have 4 gold medals. That's a huge recruiting edge with HS kids, they want to wrestle for a guy who has won it all on the highest level. I'm not sure how many HS kids even know who Chris Pendleton is, his wrestling career ended in 2005 and I bet none of the current D1 wrestlers ever saw Chris wrestle a match (except maybe on youtube)! David Taylor, on the other hand, is like an icon to HS wrestlers.  Taylor is recent enough that some of the HS kids today may have watched him winning his last NCAA title when they were little shits in elementary school. Plus David has had a great Sr level career and they are certainly aware of that. No offense, but comparing Chris Pendleton to DT, wrestling wise, is like comparing prime Cindy Williams to prime Barbara Eden. Yeah, Cindy was pretty cute, but Barbara is one of the all time greatest pieces of....well, you get the point. Try not to think too much about me comparing wrestling resumes to women. 

By the way the guy below was married to Barbara Eden, so don't lose hope ugly dudes. 

[fishbane]

On 5/13/2024 at 7:06 AM, NM1965 said:

I'm not sure how many HS kids even know who Chris Pendleton is, his wrestling career ended in 2005 and I bet none of the current D1 wrestlers ever saw Chris wrestle a match (except maybe on youtube)!

Pendleton wrestled in the 2012 Olympic trials.  He lost in the challenge tournament finals to Tommy Rowlands.

[fishbane]

On 5/9/2024 at 9:40 AM, 1032004 said:

Define successful in regards to Scott’s potential at OSU.  Consistently near the top 10 and sometimes in the top 5?  Sure.  But the consensus seems to be Taylor gives them much higher potential than that.

The measure of success at OSU is a national title.  Scott could get it done.  Taylor may too. Nothing is guaranteed even at OSU.  Chesbro and Smith were great coaches and they both had 10+ year periods without winning a title whilst in Stillwater. 

On 5/9/2024 at 9:40 AM, 1032004 said:

Rob Koll in his first year (especially since classes had already started when he got the job) is not a fair comparison, but I know you know that.

I wasn't trying to grade Koll's UNC tenure based on a single year.  You had implied that while Scott's record at UNC was good but maybe not good enough to indicate that he could be successful in a job as high profile as OSU.  I think his performance compares favorably to those that have held lower profile positions either before or after success at a high profile program.  Zalesky, Brands, Ryan, Koll - none of them had more success at the lower profile programs they coached than Scott.  If Koll's tenure at UNC or Stanford is too short you can compare Scott's time at UNC with Koll's at Cornell and come to a similar conclusion.

On 5/9/2024 at 9:40 AM, 1032004 said:

I think it’s fair to bring up Scott’s performance in the ACC since neither NC State or VT were historically powerhouse programs, and they and UNC have similar resources in general.  While Scott is a good coach, most probably would have only considered him at best the 3rd best coach in the ACC.

It is and it isn't.  You say he's the 3rd best coach in the ACC.  I assume you have Robie and Popolizioo ahead of him. Evaluating a coach is more difficult than a wrestler.  Coaches are dealt different hands and it takes time to build a program.  You put the best NCAA wrestler (Carter Starocci) at any D1 program next season and he's likely to win a title.  You put the best coach (Sanderson) at any program next season and he doesn't win a title at well over half of them.  The question the search committee was trying to answer is which candidate would do the most with the resources at OSU?

I think the problem with looking at Robie/Popolizio's accomplishments and comparing them to Scott and saying they are better coaches is the starting point.  VT isn't a traditional powerhouse, but they were a consistent top ten program when Robie took over from Dresser.  Popolizio had a three year head start building the program at NC State, a process he jump started with an AA transfer from his previous post.  Scott on the other hand didn't take over a top 10 program.  UNC had not had a national champion, multiple AAs in a single season, or even a top 20 finish in 20 years (1995).  He also didn't take over after a long period of working as a top assistant.  He was the assistant in Chapel Hill for a single season before assuming the role of head coach whilst still competing.  He wrestled in the Olympic trials in 2016 following his first season as head coach (2015-2016).  If you compare Scott's 8 years at UNC with Popolizio's first 8 years in Raleigh or Dresser's first 8 at Tech they are pretty close.

 

[MPhillips]

2 hours ago, fishbane said:

You put the best coach (Sanderson) at any program next season and he doesn't win a title at well over half of them.

"Well over" like all but two, three if we're feeling very, very cocky...

[1032004]

15 hours ago, fishbane said:

The measure of success at OSU is a national title.  Scott could get it done.  Taylor may too. Nothing is guaranteed even at OSU.  Chesbro and Smith were great coaches and they both had 10+ year periods without winning a title whilst in Stillwater. 

I wasn't trying to grade Koll's UNC tenure based on a single year.  You had implied that while Scott's record at UNC was good but maybe not good enough to indicate that he could be successful in a job as high profile as OSU.  I think his performance compares favorably to those that have held lower profile positions either before or after success at a high profile program.  Zalesky, Brands, Ryan, Koll - none of them had more success at the lower profile programs they coached than Scott.  If Koll's tenure at UNC or Stanford is too short you can compare Scott's time at UNC with Koll's at Cornell and come to a similar conclusion.

It is and it isn't.  You say he's the 3rd best coach in the ACC.  I assume you have Robie and Popolizioo ahead of him. Evaluating a coach is more difficult than a wrestler.  Coaches are dealt different hands and it takes time to build a program.  You put the best NCAA wrestler (Carter Starocci) at any D1 program next season and he's likely to win a title.  You put the best coach (Sanderson) at any program next season and he doesn't win a title at well over half of them.  The question the search committee was trying to answer is which candidate would do the most with the resources at OSU?

I think the problem with looking at Robie/Popolizio's accomplishments and comparing them to Scott and saying they are better coaches is the starting point.  VT isn't a traditional powerhouse, but they were a consistent top ten program when Robie took over from Dresser.  Popolizio had a three year head start building the program at NC State, a process he jump started with an AA transfer from his previous post.  Scott on the other hand didn't take over a top 10 program.  UNC had not had a national champion, multiple AAs in a single season, or even a top 20 finish in 20 years (1995).  He also didn't take over after a long period of working as a top assistant.  He was the assistant in Chapel Hill for a single season before assuming the role of head coach whilst still competing.  He wrestled in the Olympic trials in 2016 following his first season as head coach (2015-2016).  If you compare Scott's 8 years at UNC with Popolizio's first 8 years in Raleigh or Dresser's first 8 at Tech they are pretty close.

 

I have a hard time believing Scott would have had more than about a 1% chance of winning a title at OSU as long as Cael is still coaching.   But I’d probably say that about most current coaches.

Thanks for the research, but I’m not sure they’ve convinced me that Scott was any better than the 3rd best coach in the ACC.  So where would you have ranked Scott as a coach in the ACC? Certainly behind Pop based on your numbers.  I guess you’re trying to say Robie’s situation isn’t comparable.  What about Keith Gavin?  Looks like this will be his 8th season.   And Gavin finished ahead of Scott at Scott’s last 2 ACC tournaments.