Slip throws - a thread

[Tony Rotundo]

I think we need to modernize slip throws in both FS and GR. It's one of those things that we've had around for so long, we're kind of blind to the gaming of the ruleset. I recently brought up slips to a group of officials, bc a kid at Last Chance hit five slips in a match. It was ridiculous. My question was, "After the second slip, shouldn't the offender be warned just like passivity (caution and then one)?" I then brought up the idea of slips just going away. Instantly the officials said "No, then no one will take a chance at a throw!" That's old rhetoric. That's thinking like it's 1980. I don't buy it. I get there are rare cases where it's actually a slip, but that's probably 10% of the time. 

At the very least, I think after the second slip, you get a verbal, and after that it's a point. That's a start. But I also think they should just be removed for FS. As for greco, they should be called passivity more frequently. It's SO obvious when they are faked, call that shit! It's not good for the style. 

 

[Dark Energy]

Very much agree.  We were laughing at the whole ridiculousness of the event each time we saw it in a Greco match.  Made the style look even worse.  I’m in a bad spot, lame as head and arm attempt … I’m saved.

[Hammerlock3]

Its a flagship of pseudo intellect tripe as far as rules go. It doesn't encourage aggressive wrestling ever, its impossible to enforce consistently, and I've when you try to explain it to people who don't know the sport they scoff at it.

Just take it out.

[Dogbone]

Eliminate it.   If guy takes a bad shot we don't give him a well you tried restart.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

16 hours ago, Tony Rotundo said:

I think we need to modernize slip throws in both FS and GR. It's one of those things that we've had around for so long, we're kind of blind to the gaming of the ruleset. I recently brought up slips to a group of officials, bc a kid at Last Chance hit five slips in a match. It was ridiculous. My question was, "After the second slip, shouldn't the offender be warned just like passivity (caution and then one)?" I then brought up the idea of slips just going away. Instantly the officials said "No, then no one will take a chance at a throw!" That's old rhetoric. That's thinking like it's 1980. I don't buy it. I get there are rare cases where it's actually a slip, but that's probably 10% of the time. 

At the very least, I think after the second slip, you get a verbal, and after that it's a point. That's a start. But I also think they should just be removed for FS. As for greco, they should be called passivity more frequently. It's SO obvious when they are faked, call that shit! It's not good for the style. 

 

I agree with this.  In my very mediocre Greco career, I did get after it pretty good and actually legitimately slipped on many throws.  However, there were times when a guy got a deep underhook (or two) and I "slipped" to save myself from a bad situation.

[CHROMEBIRD]

5 hours ago, Dogbone said:

Eliminate it.   If guy takes a bad shot we don't give him a well you tried restart.  

Exactly. Also taking bad shots forces the offensive wrestler to chain wrestle out of the situation and find another scoring opportunity, which leads to more excitement. 

If slip throws was an effective rule, Judo would have adopted it in a second.

[Jim L]

4 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Exactly. Also taking bad shots forces the offensive wrestler to chain wrestle out of the situation and find another scoring opportunity, which leads to more excitement. 

If slip throws was an effective rule, Judo would have adopted it in a second.

In Judo you don't get penalize for a missed throw. Your opponent has to stop your momentum and then force you to the mat (to your back to score).  After a missed throw, the action isn't stop and so the punishment is you have to defend on the mat, this should be adopted in GR.

There is a time limit within you have to attempt an attack or you get penalize for passivity. So if you pretend to throw and immediately bail out you can get a penalty for a false attack.

Mindsets about what actions deserve points can be very different across very similar sports. I was explaining slipped throws in GR to a non-wrestling Judo friend and he just could not understand how all wrestling does not have that rule. Getting points for your opponents making a bad move and you doing nothing did not make sense to him. What clearly should be worthy of scoring point to someone used to one system does not make sense at all if you are used to different rules. 

 

[wrestlingshoe]

Sometime in the 90s there was still a slip throw but you were not brought back to your feet. The other wrestler gets a shot at a turn with no takedown scored. Thought that was good. 

[ILLINIWrestlingBlog]

I like the slip throw rule. The original poster writes:

"No, then no one will take a chance at a throw!" That's old rhetoric. 

Sometimes old rhetoric is the best rhetoric. Would we ever see another arm throw in our lifetimes if slipped throws were penalized? Double over-hook throws? Headlock throws? Goodbye forever to those, my friends. Additionally, if you catch the wrestler attempting to throw and stop his momentum, you can score a takedown yourself or hit your own throw for exposure. So, there is a remedy for half-baked throw attempts that slip. 

What I would change is that a slip throw in the Passivity Zone would be a Caution and Two with choice of position. Otherwise, let them try! 

Unrelated, but I thought the image below was funny when I saw it the other day. Is that Alabama Greco? I love the internet:

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 hours ago, wrestlingshoe said:

Sometime in the 90s there was still a slip throw but you were not brought back to your feet. The other wrestler gets a shot at a turn with no takedown scored. Thought that was good. 

Yes.  This happened to me around 91?  About 1.5 minutes left in the 5 minute period.  I had a decent lead (3-0 on three one pointers?) on a very good guy on the "national team," whom was also a D1 placer.  He got a tight hold on me and i "slipped."  This is where things went very very bad for me.  The match did not end up going the distance... and I did not win.

The first 3.5 minutes were probably the best I ever wrestled in my life however.

[Eagle26]

16 hours ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said:

I like the slip throw rule. The original poster writes:

"No, then no one will take a chance at a throw!" That's old rhetoric. 

Sometimes old rhetoric is the best rhetoric. Would we ever see another arm throw in our lifetimes if slipped throws were penalized? Double over-hook throws? Headlock throws? Goodbye forever to those, my friends. Additionally, if you catch the wrestler attempting to throw and stop his momentum, you can score a takedown yourself or hit your own throw for exposure. So, there is a remedy for half-baked throw attempts that slip. 

What I would change is that a slip throw in the Passivity Zone would be a Caution and Two with choice of position. Otherwise, let them try! 

Unrelated, but I thought the image below was funny when I saw it the other day. Is that Alabama Greco? I love the internet:

The incentive to throw is to score points. If someone is down by 4, I’m sure we will still see arm throws and other throws attempted as well. So forced par tarre really helps with that because it helps puts points on the board. You could actually argue that the slip rule decreases the amount of throws you see because when someone gets in a bad position, they can use that as a free way out. Take it away, and they fight through that bad position more and may end up getting tossed. Either way, I think the vast majority of slip throws are not legitimate attempts so I’d like to see it go away

 

[MadMardigain]

I’ve said forever that if it looks like a clear slip then continue wrestling where you end up without awarding points to either wrestler.   Ref can signal the “slip” to nullify any points being awarded, but if you end up on bottom afterward then you just have to deal with defending the position you are now in.  Most slips, at least at a nine international level, are due to a lack of a solid position and technique anyway, so if you don’t want to end up on bottom after then improve on your position and technique.