Jump to content
  • Playwire Ad Area

Semifinal Byes


Recommended Posts

I don't understand the bracketing that Flo has for 65KG.  Below is their bracket.

image.png.d5903f829aa9bfdc0e4f5037fb4cb594.png

I think this is dumb.  To make the top semifinal a wrestler must be best of 3 wrestlers.  This is the case for either quarterfinal that feeds into it.  To make the bottom semifinal you must either be Zain Retherford or the top wrestler out of 6 guys.  This makes no sense.  It makes the bracket unbalanced and the 4 seed more advantageous than the 2 or 3 seeds.  It would make more sense to give Retherford his own semi spot and then distribute the 12 wrestlers equally to feed into the other three semi spots.  This would make either semifinalist the top wrestler out of 4 instead of two semis being feed by small brackets with 3 wrestlers each and the other semi having 2x as many guys.  

I would probably do it something like this

image.png.58d12d1dbea70b209d744506e58bd9e1.png

Here I've made Retherford/the guy with the bye to the semi as the defacto 1 seed distributed the other wrestlers according to their seeds.  If there is something in the procedures that favours the actual 1 seed over the guy with a bye to the semifinals I'd switch Retherford with Lee's quarter bracket.  This would give the 1 seed Lee the most advantageous semifinal position avoiding both the two seed, Diakomihalis, and the wrestler with the bye, Retherford, until the finals.  It would look like this

image.png.d5f8d4b40f17ba96bb1b74d1c0b93d73.png

I can't figure out why they do it that way.  I thought they would have realized how stupid it was to do it like this the last time after they looked at the 74kg bracket.  Totally unbalanced.  Nolf had to win only one match to make the finals the same as Dake who had the bye.  Meanwhile All the wrestlers on the bottom like the two and three seeds would have to win 3.  

image.thumb.png.07ed8003664adb0657f55032b753b7af.png

  • Bob 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I don't understand the bracketing that Flo has for 65KG.  Below is their bracket.

image.png.d5903f829aa9bfdc0e4f5037fb4cb594.png

I think this is dumb.  To make the top semifinal a wrestler must be best of 3 wrestlers.  This is the case for either quarterfinal that feeds into it.  To make the bottom semifinal you must either be Zain Retherford or the top wrestler out of 6 guys.  This makes no sense.  It makes the bracket unbalanced and the 4 seed more advantageous than the 2 or 3 seeds.  It would make more sense to give Retherford his own semi spot and then distribute the 12 wrestlers equally to feed into the other three semi spots.  This would make either semifinalist the top wrestler out of 4 instead of two semis being feed by small brackets with 3 wrestlers each and the other semi having 2x as many guys.  

I would probably do it something like this

image.png.58d12d1dbea70b209d744506e58bd9e1.png

Here I've made Retherford/the guy with the bye to the semi as the defacto 1 seed distributed the other wrestlers according to their seeds.  If there is something in the procedures that favours the actual 1 seed over the guy with a bye to the semifinals I'd switch Retherford with Lee's quarter bracket.  This would give the 1 seed Lee the most advantageous semifinal position avoiding both the two seed, Diakomihalis, and the wrestler with the bye, Retherford, until the finals.  It would look like this

image.png.d5f8d4b40f17ba96bb1b74d1c0b93d73.png

I can't figure out why they do it that way.  I thought they would have realized how stupid it was to do it like this the last time after they looked at the 74kg bracket.  Totally unbalanced.  Nolf had to win only one match to make the finals the same as Dake who had the bye.  Meanwhile All the wrestlers on the bottom like the two and three seeds would have to win 3.  

image.thumb.png.07ed8003664adb0657f55032b753b7af.png

I agree it’s messed up, but how do consis work in your bracket?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not treat the semi bye as the 1 seed.   That’s essentially what they are going for stylistically no ?    Ignore ish the seeds that help facilitate the 1 seed getting to the semi and it looks like this     (Pre Vito skipping I’m just not re drawing)

similar to fide chess candidates world champ tourney    The returning champ sits in the finals…. While the next 8 qualifiers play 14 total games (double round robin) for the right to play the returning champ.    Sometimes (last year I think) the returning champ does not play.   In that case whoever wins the challenge tourney is world champ.  

 

 

 

IMG_5487.thumb.png.aa09c068de05bf9686d44f36384c25e5.png

Edited by Caveira
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Why not treat the semi bye as the 1 seed.   That’s essentially what they are going for stylistically no ?    Ignore ish the seeds that help facilitate the 1 seed getting to the semi and it looks like this     (Pre Vito skipping I’m just not re drawing)

similar to fide chess candidates world champ tourney    The returning champ sits in the finals…. While the next 8 qualifiers play 14 total games (double round robin) for the right to play the returning champ.    Sometimes (last year I think) the returning champ does not play.   In that case whoever wins the challenge tourney is world champ.  

 

 

 

IMG_5487.thumb.png.aa09c068de05bf9686d44f36384c25e5.png

This is essentially what I did at 65kg.  I just kept the pre-seed assignments instead of reassigning them the number where they would be placed in a 16 man bracket.  

The problem is that the procedures are set up to allow for two semifinal byes.  When there is only one then the other becomes a bye making the bracket very unbalanced.  If there are two wrestlers with semi-final byes then it works just fine.  However two semifinal byes are only possible at three weights and has never happened.  They should make a separate procedure for the situation where only one wrestler has a bye.  Here is the sample bracket from the procedures.

image.png.ad45be2d6045ca86af542aa4ab065991.png

In this case the one world medalist position turns into a bye and makes everything stupid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree it’s messed up, but how do consis work in your bracket?

There would be byes, but they would be less messed up than they are now.  Below is the consolation bracket from 74kg in 2021.  There were 8 wrestlers in the bracket.  The championship bracket had three wrestlers on the top and 5 on the bottom including Dake who had a bye to the semis.  The consolation bracket contained the 6 wrestlers who lost before the final with two on the top and 4 on the bottom.  image.thumb.png.2b104bcdfff336d1477ab2f96da3bfc4.png

If I were to draw them up it would look something like this

Championship          
  Nolf        
  1 Nolf      
  bye 7      
      Nolf    
  Gantt   10    
  2 Gantt      
  Joseph        
        Nolf  
  Massa     12  
  3 Massa      
  bye 8      
      Wick    
  bye        
  4 Wick      
  Wick        
          Dake
  Marsteller        
  5 Marsteller      
  bye 9      
      Marsteller    
  bye   11    
  6 Carr      
  Carr        
        Dake  
           
           
           
      Dake    
           

 

and the consolation would look something like this 

         
Bye (missing quarter)        
  Joseph      
Joseph (loser 1/2)        
    Carr    
Carr (loser 9)        
  Carr   Wick  
Bye (loser 3/4)        
    Wick (loser 10)    
        Marsteller
   
Marsteller (Loser 11)
   
Massa (loser 8)        
  Massa   Marsteller  
bye (loser 5/6)        
    Massa    
Gantt (loser 7)        
  Gantt      
Bye (missing R16)        
         

The entries missing due to the matches eliminated to accommodate the semifinal bye are in bold.  You can see there is one on the top and another on the other side making the backet balanced.   Brackets were filled out progressing wrestlers, but what I think their seeds were for illustration purposes.  These matches never happened.

 

Edited by fishbane
  • Brain 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, fishbane said:

I don't understand the bracketing that Flo has for 65KG.  Below is their bracket.

image.png.d5903f829aa9bfdc0e4f5037fb4cb594.png

I think this is dumb.  To make the top semifinal a wrestler must be best of 3 wrestlers.  This is the case for either quarterfinal that feeds into it.  To make the bottom semifinal you must either be Zain Retherford or the top wrestler out of 6 guys.  This makes no sense.  It makes the bracket unbalanced and the 4 seed more advantageous than the 2 or 3 seeds.  It would make more sense to give Retherford his own semi spot and then distribute the 12 wrestlers equally to feed into the other three semi spots.  This would make either semifinalist the top wrestler out of 4 instead of two semis being feed by small brackets with 3 wrestlers each and the other semi having 2x as many guys.  

I would probably do it something like this

image.png.58d12d1dbea70b209d744506e58bd9e1.png

Here I've made Retherford/the guy with the bye to the semi as the defacto 1 seed distributed the other wrestlers according to their seeds.  If there is something in the procedures that favours the actual 1 seed over the guy with a bye to the semifinals I'd switch Retherford with Lee's quarter bracket.  This would give the 1 seed Lee the most advantageous semifinal position avoiding both the two seed, Diakomihalis, and the wrestler with the bye, Retherford, until the finals.  It would look like this

image.png.d5f8d4b40f17ba96bb1b74d1c0b93d73.png

I can't figure out why they do it that way.  I thought they would have realized how stupid it was to do it like this the last time after they looked at the 74kg bracket.  Totally unbalanced.  Nolf had to win only one match to make the finals the same as Dake who had the bye.  Meanwhile All the wrestlers on the bottom like the two and three seeds would have to win 3.  

image.thumb.png.07ed8003664adb0657f55032b753b7af.png

I yelled this same thing in my own head when I saw this bracket structure…just lazily constructed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Nobody, but USAW, thinks the current brackets make any sense. 

And nobody, but USAW, gets a say.

Hopefully they heed our complaints in the future.

You're not wrong.  Here is the document with the procedures - https://assets.contentstack.io/v3/assets/blteb7d012fc7ebef7f/bltf8d10db3aa328be4/650367e19bcd1b10091d0862/2024_MFS_OLY_Procedures.pdf

Looking at the edit history at the end of the document it was created by Megan Ball and reviewed and signed off on by Rich Bender, Cody Bickley, and Mallory Velte.  I suppose we should be complaining to them.  Maybe they will spend more than a minute reviewing it next time.  All of their email addresses are in the document...

Edited by fishbane
  • Brain 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, fishbane said:

You're not wrong.  Here is the document with the procedures - https://assets.contentstack.io/v3/assets/blteb7d012fc7ebef7f/bltf8d10db3aa328be4/650367e19bcd1b10091d0862/2024_MFS_OLY_Procedures.pdf

Looking at the edit history at the end of the document it was created by Megan Ball and reviewed and signed off on by Rich Bender, Cody Bickley, and Mallory Velte.  I suppose we should be complaining to them.  Maybe they will spend more than a minute reviewing it next time.  All of their email addresses are in the document...

Hmmm. A well reasoned series of emails may be in order.

Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So while I agree @fishbane brackets makes more sense, who does the current method hurt more?  The bye who has a tougher semi draw or the 2 seed (really the #3 guy in the bracket if the bye is #1) who only gets one chance (not 2 out of 3) to beat the bye/#1 guy. 

I actually they think they should seed the bye and if bye earns the #1 seed then the bracket should be like Fishbanes proposal.  The only reason I can think of not doing it that way is if the guy who earns the #1 seed isn't the the returning medalist.   Give the returning medalist the bye but if that guy didn't wrestle for a year and someone else has been going to international tournaments and winning/winning the US Open, etc. an argument could be made that they should get the 1 seed over a guy who hasn't competed in a year. (No one has done that so it wouldn't apply this year, I am just trying to think of reasons why the current method makes sense).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dogbone said:

I actually they think they should seed the bye and if bye earns the #1 seed then the bracket should be like Fishbanes proposal. 

I had thought about this and I also think the wrestler with the bye should be seeded.  I would guarantee the wrestler with the bye a top 4 seed and just more him to that position in the bracket.  In the case of 65kg Retherford could be the top seed, but there is an argument for Nick Lee to be the top seed.  The last time Retherford wrestled 65kg he lost to Nick Lee.  Retherford has never medaled at 65kg.  Diakomihalis has beaten Retherford at 65kg and is the only wrestler to medal at the weight.  I could see someone putting him anywhere between 1-3.  Ideally I'd want the wrestlers distributed so the top 2 guys meet in the finals.  

I could see this being a slight issue if two wrestlers have byes.  This could have been the case this year if Arujau  had gone up.  I don't think many would have him as a top 2 seed at 65 kg.  In this case I say give both Aruba and Retherford guaranteed top 4 seeds.  Putting no further restrictions on the seeding could lead to the two guys with byes wrestling each other in the semis if Retherford is 2 behind Nick Lee and Arujau gets the 3.  Some people might not like that because their opponent will also be fresh.  I'm okay with that as they still only need 1 win to make the final and they will have a big advantage over their finals opponent, but some will want them separated in the bracket.  I think this is a minor point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here are less stupid proposed bracket for 65kg and 86kg.  This keeps Nick Lee and Aaron Brooks in the position of the 1 seed which sounds about right to me since they both defeated the wrestler with the semifinal bye in their last meeting.  

I have the consolations by standard bracketing and it doesn't work out quite as perfect as 2021 74kg did, but it's still better than what was actually used.  There are two byes in the consi quarters (R12) which are created by the missing quarterfinals and R16 matches in the championship bracket.  

Two wrestlers could be moved from the cons quarters to fill the byes in the R12.  This would make  it so no quarterfinal loser would have a bye to the cons semi 1 round (top 8 finish).  This would leave a single first round consolation match at 65 and a full consi quarter (r12) round at 86kg.  I'd probably lean to placing the losers of match 1 and 5 into this pigtail as they would likely be the worst seeded and the last matches to be filled when entering the bracket.  So this would be a bye at 86KG where there its no match 1 (Brooks has a bye).  I've also attached a visualization of this.

65kbBracketLessStupid.pdf65kbBracketLessStupid.pdf

86kbBracketLessStupid.pdf86kbBracketLessStupid.pdf

ConsolationsModified.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Playwire Ad Area


  • Playwire Ad Area
  • Latest Rankings

  • College Commitments

    Adam Mattin

    Delta, Ohio
    Class of 2025
    Committed to Stanford
    Projected Weight: 125, 133

    Grant Stromberg

    Mukwonago, Wisconsin
    Class of 2024
    Committed to Northern Iowa
    Projected Weight: 285

    Hudson Ward

    Canton, Pennsylvania
    Class of 2024
    Committed to Lock Haven
    Projected Weight: 165

    Alex Reed

    Shikellamy, Pennsylvania
    Class of 2024
    Committed to Lock Haven
    Projected Weight: 125

    Darren Florance

    Harpursville, New York
    Class of 2024
    Committed to Lock Haven
    Projected Weight: 125
  • Playwire Ad Area
×
×
  • Create New...