Poll: Who is the GOAT American wrestler?

[JimmyCinnabon]

Without criteria to judge guys on I couldn’t tell you. 
 

I can tell you who the greatest NCAA wrestler is. Or the greatest senior level guy is. These are easy, you just look at credentials. But how do we weight them? Without criteria when adding these together I can’t give an opinion. 

Edited April 12, 2024 by JimmyCinnabon

[ionel]

  On 4/12/2024 at 9:40 PM, feet2back said:

Pretty crazy 2 of the 3 Goat are from New Jersey and have 1 combined NJ State Title

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There can't be 3 GOATs or even 2. 

[scourge165]

  On 4/12/2024 at 7:43 PM, boconnell said:

What are you basing the juiced stuff on? 

You can't declare a guy the best wrestler ever 7 months after he got crushed in his prime by a 20 year old.  

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I can't?

Abdulrashid Sadulaev is the greatest wrestler ever.

 

Yeah, I think I can!

[Threadkilla]

  On 4/13/2024 at 2:21 AM, scourge165 said:

I can't?

Abdulrashid Sadulaev is the greatest wrestler ever.

 

Yeah, I think I can!

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Not yet.  He has a way to go to match Buvaisar Saitiev.

[scourge165]

  On 4/13/2024 at 3:07 AM, Threadkilla said:

Not yet.  He has a way to go to match Buvaisar Saitiev.

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Yeah...I don't agree. 6 weights vs 10. Dominated at 86, went up to 97 and has dominated, I lean to Sadulaev. 

I'll take him as the best ever. But, as the thread says, you're free to take whomever you'd like. 

[boconnell]

  On 4/12/2024 at 9:53 PM, gimpeltf said:

He and Sad are within a few months of each other.

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Yep.  Sad was 27 when he got crushed last year.  Snyder is 29 now.  That 1.5 years matters.  Sadulaev was squarely in his crime and got crushed by a 20 year old.  You can't be the GOAT with an unavenged loss like that in your prime.  

[scourge165]

  On 4/13/2024 at 4:38 AM, boconnell said:

Yep.  Sad was 27 when he got crushed last year.  Snyder is 29 now.  That 1.5 years matters.  Sadulaev was squarely in his crime and got crushed by a 20 year old.  You can't be the GOAT with an unavenged loss like that in your prime.  

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So...Saitiev avenged his loss at age 25 to Slay? You can't be the GOAT with an unavenged loss like that in your prime...

Sadulalaev was also clearly compromised for that match.

 

[wrestlingshoe]

  On 4/12/2024 at 11:43 PM, JimmyCinnabon said:

Without criteria when adding these together I can’t give an opinion

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Opinions don't need criteria, unless your opinion is that you need criteria...

[scourge165]

  On 4/13/2024 at 5:36 AM, wrestlingshoe said:

Opinions don't need criteria, unless your opinion is that you need criteria...

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Thank You.

This SHOULD be a subject where you're extolling the accomplishments of ALL of these dudes(with DT in the mix). You can argue for everyone.

Gable was so insanely dominant in his time. One loss and it's the biggest in US History(domestic).

JB-Speaks for itself.

You could go on, but...unless you go on a 10-year run where you're undefeated(or people believe that, but you actually lost a match nobody remembers). Even then, plenty of people think Lopez is the best Greco Wrestler ever, not Karelin.

You NEVER get a real Apples for Apples comp in any sport. In Football, eras vary so much and teams vary so much. Barry didn't have Smith's OL. So you watch and you come up with an informed opinion. 

I rank some 3X Champs over a couple of the 4X Champs. I could see Mesenbrink ending up in my top 2-3 greatest College Wrestlers ever. 

If you want most accomplished...well, there are some great statisticians here who can plug everything into an excel spreadsheet and come up with a great list!

[boconnell]

  On 4/13/2024 at 5:09 AM, scourge165 said:

So...Saitiev avenged his loss at age 25 to Slay? You can't be the GOAT with an unavenged loss like that in your prime...

Sadulalaev was also clearly compromised for that match.

 

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It's awesome that because the result doesn't fit what you believed before the match happened, that it must not count.  The opponent must be juiced and Sad must be compromised.  

[gimpeltf]

  On 4/13/2024 at 4:38 AM, boconnell said:

Yep.  Sad was 27 when he got crushed last year.  Snyder is 29 now.  That 1.5 years matters.  Sadulaev was squarely in his crime and got crushed by a 20 year old.  You can't be the GOAT with an unavenged loss like that in your prime.  

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Snyder is 28 now (11/20/95). Sad is 27 soon to be 28 (5/9/96). So fewer than 6 months.

[Dark Energy]

  On 4/13/2024 at 8:54 AM, gimpeltf said:

Snyder is 28 now (11/20/95). Sad is 27 soon to be 28 (5/9/96). So fewer than 6 months.

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Do you honestly believe what you posted here?  Honest Q.  Seem like many doubt Sad’s stated age.  I’m curious if you do as well.

[scribers]

It’s a real shame Sanderson didn’t stay competing like this current generation. He probably would have wound up the greatest ever 

[boconnell]

  On 4/13/2024 at 8:54 AM, gimpeltf said:

Snyder is 28 now (11/20/95). Sad is 27 soon to be 28 (5/9/96). So fewer than 6 months.

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The World championships occurred in 2023. That's why the post you quote says Sadulaev last year and Snyder now and highlights difference in their ages at those separate times.  

[boconnell]

  On 4/13/2024 at 11:46 AM, scribers said:

It’s a real shame Sanderson didn’t stay competing like this current generation. He probably would have wound up the greatest ever 

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Possibly but I doubt it.  He was 2 when he won his first gold.  That's a huge late start compared to the guys he would be competing with for best ever.  It's hard to stack up titles like JB and Smith when you start winning that late.  

[bnwtwg]

John Smith couldn't go undefeated in the world tournaments he won. If he wrestled a traditional bracket tourney then he would not have 6 golds. Burroughs has a Mickey Mouse 7th title in 2021 at 79 eight weeks after the Olympics but he earned the other 6. Advantage: Burroughs.

And good call-out that Snyder is one of the best but THE best of his generation was in front of him. Tank>JB

Edited April 13, 2024 by bnwtwg

[ionel]

  On 4/13/2024 at 12:56 PM, bnwtwg said:

John Smith couldn't go undefeated in the world tournaments he won. If he wrestled a traditional bracket tourney then he would not have 6 golds.

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How do you know that? 

[ionel]

  On 4/13/2024 at 11:46 AM, scribers said:

It’s a real shame Sanderson didn’t stay competing like this current generation. He probably would have wound up the greatest ever 

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How did he do in his first world competition?  How many did he win still in college?

[BAC]

  On 4/12/2024 at 9:40 PM, feet2back said:

Pretty crazy 2 of the 3 Goat are from New Jersey and have 1 combined NJ State Title

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Yes it’s a shame that NJ’s coaching and competition is so poor that their best guys need to get out of the state to develop and reach their true potential.

 

[ionel]

  On 4/12/2024 at 6:40 PM, Jim L said:

I will bring up the standard counter that there were 10 weight classes and only one Soviet/Russian when Smith wrestled.

 

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Are you saying it was tougher in Smith's era.  Soviets were considered some of the best back then prob cause whoever was their rep had trained with and beat all the other soviet states.  Someone who did so couldn't certainly be considered better trained than say a rep from Ukraine or Russia.  On the 7 vs 10 its really a very marginal difference when you consider that one guy you might face that could beat you based on the weight.  And maybe the 10 weight guys were tougher better cause they were closer to their optimal weight.

See you could argue it both ways. 

[Le duke]

  On 4/13/2024 at 1:47 PM, ionel said:

Are you saying it was tougher in Smith's era.  Soviets were considered some of the best back then prob cause whoever was their rep had trained with and beat all the other soviet states.  Someone who did so couldn't certainly be considered better trained than say a rep from Ukraine or Russia.  On the 7 vs 10 its really a very marginal difference when you consider that one guy you might face that could beat you based on the weight.  And maybe the 10 weight guys were tougher better cause they were closer to their optimal weight.
See you could argue it both ways. 

But there was only one rep.

Now, you could face 2 or 3 medal-worthy reps from former Soviet countries plus an Iranian on your way to gold.


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[Paul158]

  On 4/13/2024 at 1:47 PM, ionel said:

Are you saying it was tougher in Smith's era.  Soviets were considered some of the best back then prob cause whoever was their rep had trained with and beat all the other soviet states.  Someone who did so couldn't certainly be considered better trained than say a rep from Ukraine or Russia.  On the 7 vs 10 its really a very marginal difference when you consider that one guy you might face that could beat you based on the weight.  And maybe the 10 weight guys were tougher better cause they were closer to their optimal weight.

See you could argue it both ways. 

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There are only 6 Olympic weight classes, which I find absolutely ridiculous. There was a time when the Soviet Union had 5 of the top 10 wrestlers in the world in some of the weight classes. With only one of them qualifying for the Olympics. Now with USSR breaking up and only 6 weight classes there are 5,6or 7  former USSR wrestlers in some of the weight classes. I would think it is harder now to get a medal. 

Edited April 13, 2024 by Paul158
missed a word

[gimpeltf]

  On 4/13/2024 at 12:53 PM, boconnell said:

The World championships occurred in 2023. That's why the post you quote says Sadulaev last year and Snyder now and highlights difference in their ages at those separate times.  

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I got that but you're assuming that that time span (1.5) affects them equally. They're different people in different cultures. It's not like one is 35 and the other 25 where you can probably assume the 35 is past his prime and the other just coming into it.

[ionel]

  On 4/13/2024 at 2:15 PM, Le duke said:

But there was only one rep.

Now, you could face 2 or 3 medal-worthy reps from former Soviet countries plus an Iranian on your way to gold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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But the 2 or 3 may not be as good as the 1 caused they never trained against the best.

You can argue it both ways.  Sometimes its just about beating that 1 guy, just ask Fix.  

[ionel]

  On 4/13/2024 at 2:19 PM, Paul158 said:

There are only 6 Olympic weight classes, which I find absolutely ridiculous. There was a time when the Soviet Union had 5 of the top 10 wrestlers in the world in some of the weight classes. With only one of them qualifying for the Olympics. Now with USSR breaking up and only 6 weight classes there are 5,6or 7  former USSR wrestlers in some of the weight classes. I would think it is harder now to get a medal. 

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Yes I think the 6 weight classes is ridiculous.  But now with the breakup of USSR its not the same 5, 6 or 7.  Soviets as a team were the best but now Russia is just a country (well except for the cheating) and the USA is much more competitive now. Some of out trial brackets look like world brackets.  Seems things have flipped a bit.