Tom Ryan on FRL

[VakAttack]

56 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

I took it the same way. Pyles likes to twist arguments and toe the line so that he's technically not wrong, while making provocative / bold statements online for engagement. Ryan was wrong about his statement that "McKenna and Tate were NIL era" but the rest of his stuff seemed factual. I think his main point is that Pyles tweeting that Ohio State is going after these guys could stir up rumors in the room (oh shit, did he go after Cardenas too?) and degrade his culture. Overall, kind of a nothing-burger from both sides. 

"Technically not wrong" is another way of saying "right."  Ohio State has undoubtedly had people on their rosters who transferred in.  They have not landed anybody from the transfer portal, but Ryan just admitted they have tried.  So Pyles "stirring up rumors that they're going after these guys" is not stirring up rumors, they're literally going after these guys.  He admitted it.

This all hinges on Ryan accusing Pyles of making a demonstrably false statement...that he never made.  So there's no "technically."  And you can't credibly "insinuate" that they have had portal transfers on their team; it's a binary, easily ascertainable statement.  And, again, Pyles never said that.  This is all about Ryan being in his fifis about something.  I believe the saying is "hit dog gonna holler."

[JuanMogen]

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

 

Guess I’ll just ask again - where did it say that? 

[JuanMogen]

1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

"Technically not wrong" is another way of saying "right."  Ohio State has undoubtedly had people on their rosters who transferred in.  They have not landed anybody from the transfer portal, but Ryan just admitted they have tried.  So Pyles "stirring up rumors that they're going after these guys" is not stirring up rumors, they're literally going after these guys.  He admitted it.

This all hinges on Ryan accusing Pyles of making a demonstrably false statement...that he never made.  So there's no "technically."  And you can't credibly "insinuate" that they have had portal transfers on their team; it's a binary, easily ascertainable statement.  And, again, Pyles never said that.  This is all about Ryan being in his fifis about something.  I believe the saying is "hit dog gonna holler."

And yet, here we are on page three with people still unable to see what Pyles said and didn’t say. 
 

 

[Dark Energy]

Page 2.

Anyway … seemed like a good interview.  Ryan didn’t tear Pyles a new one.  Ryan made incorrect statements.  But he made it clear that he was reacting based on his perception.  Pyles made fair and good points.  I appreciate Ryan acknowledging some of them (Ohio State wrestling benefits from good funding).  

Also appreciate that Ryan is stressing that ‘win at all costs’ is not their approach.  He feels there is a right way to act in life and in coaching.  Very interesting that he talks to team about transfers they are considering.  Sounds like he has a big focus on being forthright with people and his team.  Wants to be able to look people right in the eye and know that he himself is fully above board. Seems like a great role model.

Pyles made fair points.  The original poster here and some others are so wrapped up in their bias against Pyles that they project negativity where it is unwarranted.  So be it.

 

[1032004]

55 minutes ago, JuanMogen said:

Guess I’ll just ask again - where did it say that? 

Are you able to view the tweet/post I linked?  It’s in there.

[1032004]

2 hours ago, VakAttack said:

"Technically not wrong" is another way of saying "right."  Ohio State has undoubtedly had people on their rosters who transferred in.  They have not landed anybody from the transfer portal, but Ryan just admitted they have tried.  So Pyles "stirring up rumors that they're going after these guys" is not stirring up rumors, they're literally going after these guys.  He admitted it.

This all hinges on Ryan accusing Pyles of making a demonstrably false statement...that he never made.  So there's no "technically."  And you can't credibly "insinuate" that they have had portal transfers on their team; it's a binary, easily ascertainable statement.  And, again, Pyles never said that.  This is all about Ryan being in his fifis about something.  I believe the saying is "hit dog gonna holler."

It doesn’t really “hinge on Ryan accusing Pyles of making a demonstrably false statement” though, assuming you’re referring to what started it.  It started with Pyles replying to someone talking about Michigan “buying” guys.

Ryan’s first comment was just making a statement, and didn’t really accuse Pyles of anything other than being “silly.”  It wasn’t until later that Ryan “accused Pyles of making a demonstrably false statement” that he never made.  

However I probably should have also included this tweet, where Pyles claims “he never once said NIL.”

But the tweet he was quoting was replying to a post where he said NIL!  The post was accurate, but Pyles did say NIL.

 

But again, it is a bit odd that Ryan wants to make it known they “haven’t had any transfers in the NIL area,” when he readily admits they’ve gone after them they just haven’t gotten them.  Probably what @pokemonster said that he didn’t want the current guys to think they were getting recruited over, since he also made a point to say he tells his team about any portal guys they go after.

Edited April 12 by 1032004

[VakAttack]

15 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

It doesn’t really “hinge on Ryan accusing Pyles of making a demonstrably false statement” though, assuming you’re referring to what started it.  It started with Pyles replying to someone talking about Michigan “buying” guys.

Ryan’s first comment was just making a statement, and didn’t really accuse Pyles of anything other than being “silly.”  It wasn’t until later that Ryan “accused Pyles of making a demonstrably false statement” that he never made.  

However I probably should have also included this tweet, where Pyles claims “he never once said NIL.”

But the tweet he was quoting was replying to a post where he said NIL!  The post was accurate, but Pyles did say NIL.

 

But again, it is a bit odd that Ryan wants to make it known they “haven’t had any transfers in the NIL area,” when he readily admits they’ve gone after them they just haven’t gotten them.  Probably what @pokemonster said that he didn’t want the current guys to think they were getting recruited over, since he also made a point to say he tells his team about any portal guys they go after.

Again, we're giving Tom Ryan a bunch of credit for confusing a situation and creating the statement to which he is attacking.  Pyles never said tOSU had portaled a bunch of guys (or any guys).  He said they had benefitted from transfers, which is undeniably true.  Then Ryan started trying to take a high horse on NIL and the portal (including during the interview) where he then openly admitted to pursuing (and losing) guys in the portal.  Even if we give him the biggest benefit of the doubt, Ryan doesn't get credit for misunderstanding Pyles' post.

Edited April 12 by VakAttack

[Hammerlock3]

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Why is the portal a bad thing?  The portal in itself is a good thing IMO, it’s only when it’s combined with the current iteration of NIL that it becomes “bad.”  NIL as it was intended is not bad, but it’s mostly become “collectives” paying guys to go to certain schools, which is pretty much the opposite of what NIL is supposed to be.  I do think Ryan was basically saying NIL in its current form is bad, because it means you have to pay specific guys to get them to stay (not really based on their NIL) and that money could have otherwise went to support the program as a whole.

I'll try to say a lot quickly, NIL is fine, the portal is bad. If you agree to take scholarship money and decide you want to go elsewhere you should lose a year of eligibility. Its not abuse to expect someone to live up to an agreement. 

The macro of why its bad is because talent doesn't distribute itself on a bell curve it distributes itself on a pareto distribution, where whatever the currency in question is floods to the top of the spectrum like money in monopoly. In the context of the economy its counterproductive to fight this effect, but in the context of NCAA wrestling talent the effect should be mitigated wherever possible. The portal is a causing talent to flow to ever smaller spaces, its destroying the incentive of smaller schools to do a good job, and its making actual coaching and the art of wrestling itself less important than how much money you can grub. The sleazier you are in this environment the better, thats why guys like dresser and ryan have already started trying to pretend they're the good guys in this scenario. 

[1032004]

50 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

The portal is a causing talent to flow to ever smaller spaces, its destroying the incentive of smaller schools to do a good job, and its making actual coaching and the art of wrestling itself less important than how much money you can grub. The sleazier you are in this environment the better, thats why guys like dresser and ryan have already started trying to pretend they're the good guys in this scenario. 

To my earlier point, this seems like more of an argument against (the current version of) NIL than the portal.

IMO, it’s moreso the money that is causing guys to jump ship and I think we’d see less transfers without that (and yes I know the free Covid year has also caused a surge in grad transfers that wouldn’t have transferred if not for the free year).  Also as has been pointed out, there has been a pretty good number of guys use the portal to go from bigger schools to smaller ones. 

[Hammerlock3]

5 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

To my earlier point, this seems like more of an argument against (the current version of) NIL than the portal.

IMO, it’s moreso the money that is causing guys to jump ship and I think we’d see less transfers without that (and yes I know the free Covid year has also caused a surge in grad transfers that wouldn’t have transferred if not for the free year).  Also as has been pointed out, there has been a pretty good number of guys use the portal to go from bigger schools to smaller ones. 

whether or not they lose a whole year of eligibility is enormous in this scenario. These schools had ways of paying these guys before, but who wants to pay for a guy you won't see in the lineup for 18 months. The portal is way worse than NIL

[1032004]

1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

Again, we're giving Tom Ryan a bunch of credit for confusing a situation and creating the statement to which he is attacking.  Pyles never said tOSU had portaled a bunch of guys (or any guys).  He said they had benefitted from transfers, which is undeniably true.  Then Ryan started trying to take a high horse on NIL and the portal (including during the interview) where he then openly admitted to pursuing (and losing) guys in the portal.  Even if we give him the biggest benefit of the doubt, Ryan doesn't get credit for misunderstanding Pyles' post.

But again, the original comment Pyles was responding to was talking about “buying” guys.  I think it’s fair to interpret that as being what the conversation as a whole was referring to.  Ryan wanted to make clear he hadn’t “bought” any transfers (even though he’s tried to, and has also “bought” recruits).

[MPhillips]

OSU got Tate after the portal was a thing. If that's a benefit, so be it... We were good with, "Gas Tank Gary."

 

For the dummies in the back...

The Pareto principle was developed by Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto in 1896. Pareto observed that 80% of the land in Italy was owned by only 20% of the population. He also witnessed this happening with plants in his garden—20% of his plants were bearing 80% of the fruit.

[ionel]

16 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

 

For the dummies in the back...

The Pareto principle was developed by Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto in 1896. Pareto observed that 80% of the land in Italy was owned by only 20% of the population. He also witnessed this happening with plants in his garden—20% of his plants were bearing 80% of the fruit.

This may be a dumb question but how do we know 80% of them weren't weeds, we all know the definition of a weed correct?  

[scorenomore]

Best take away I had was Sammy might be back second semester. 
 

To me, that means Sammy is coming back, but doesn’t want to take classes. 

[1032004]

55 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

whether or not they lose a whole year of eligibility is enormous in this scenario. These schools had ways of paying these guys before, but who wants to pay for a guy you won't see in the lineup for 18 months. The portal is way worse than NIL

Agree to disagree, at least for wrestling (I’ve heard there’s much more craziness in football and basketball). I don’t think kids (which most are when they commit) should be forced to lose 25% of their eligibility if they don’t like the school, or even if they can’t make the lineup.  Especially when coaches aren’t held to the same standard.

It will be interesting to see how many less transfers there are after the Covid year guys are gone.  And even outside of grad transfers, I think most big name transfers have spent 3 postseasons at their original school.

Outside of circumstances like your coach leaving or your program getting cut, I may be forgetting someone but I literally can’t think of one guy that was at a small school, had a breakout year in the NCAA as a freshman or sophomore and then portaled.   Closest would be Mesenbrink but his breakout wasn’t in the NCAA and IIRC it really started before he was even a student at Cal Baptist.  Some may say Nagao but Minnesota isn’t a small school. 

Edited April 12 by 1032004

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Agree to disagree, at least for wrestling (I’ve heard there’s much more craziness in football and basketball). I don’t think kids (which most are when they commit) should be forced to lose 25% of their eligibility if they don’t like the school, or even if they can’t make the lineup.  Especially when coaches aren’t held to the same standard.

It will be interesting to see how many less transfers there are after the Covid year guys are gone.  And even outside of grad transfers, I think most big name transfers have spent 3 postseasons at their original school.

Outside of circumstances like your coach leaving or your program getting cut, I may be forgetting someone but I literally can’t think of one guy that was at a small school, had a breakout year in the NCAA as a freshman or sophomore and then portaled.   Closest would be Mesenbrink but his breakout wasn’t in the NCAA and IIRC it really even started before he was even a student at Cal Baptist.  Some may say Nagao but Minnesota isn’t a small school. 

would caliendo meet your criteria?

[JuanMogen]

3 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Are you able to view the tweet/post I linked?  It’s in there.

I see it perfectly clear. 

[1032004]

11 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

would caliendo meet your criteria?

Coach left 

[1032004]

4 minutes ago, JuanMogen said:

I see it perfectly clear. 

But you’re not seeing where Ryan said that?

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Coach left 

yeah i guess you've got a point, hopefully you're right. When caleb henson shows up to replace gomez i'm vindicated though!

[1032004]

21 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

yeah i guess you've got a point, hopefully you're right. When caleb henson shows up to replace gomez i'm vindicated though!

VT not a small school.

If we see Stephen Little or Peyten Keller go in the portal then maybe.

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said:

I'll try to say a lot quickly, NIL is fine, the portal is bad. If you agree to take scholarship money and decide you want to go elsewhere you should lose a year of eligibility. Its not abuse to expect someone to live up to an agreement. 

The macro of why its bad is because talent doesn't distribute itself on a bell curve it distributes itself on a pareto distribution, where whatever the currency in question is floods to the top of the spectrum like money in monopoly. In the context of the economy its counterproductive to fight this effect, but in the context of NCAA wrestling talent the effect should be mitigated wherever possible. The portal is a causing talent to flow to ever smaller spaces, its destroying the incentive of smaller schools to do a good job, and its making actual coaching and the art of wrestling itself less important than how much money you can grub. The sleazier you are in this environment the better, thats why guys like dresser and ryan have already started trying to pretend they're the good guys in this scenario. 

I have never understood the argument that a transfer is somehow not living up to an agreement when the agreement takes the form of, "if you go to school here, we will not charge you tuition for only the time you are here".

On the flip side, coaches sign multi-year contracts that they do not always honor.

[Hammerlock3]

41 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I have never understood the argument that a transfer is somehow not living up to an agreement when the agreement takes the form of, "if you go to school here, we will not charge you tuition for only the time you are here".

On the flip side, coaches sign multi-year contracts that they do not always honor.

The way you put it does make me think twice. I'd really have to get in the weeds to respond in any meaningful way, but I guess my response would probably be that athletes should have to confirm or relinquish their scholarship $ before entering the portal.

But to undermine my argument again, when these athletes under perform the coaches have all sorts of ways of just taking their money back. Hard to argue with the portal when the opposite behavior is never mentioned and absolutely common place.

[Show_Me]

On 4/12/2024 at 2:44 PM, 1032004 said:

I may be forgetting someone but I literally can’t think of one guy that was at a small school, had a breakout year in the NCAA as a freshman or sophomore and then portaled.

Not sure how you define “small school” but Feldkamp, Buchanan & Caleb Smith immediately come to mind without even looking at brackets/rosters.

Hard to believe that you don’t see the damage the Portal is having on smaller Programs.

[gimpeltf]

9 minutes ago, Show_Me said:

Feldkamp, Buchanan & Smith

Law Firm or Wall Street?