Can wrestling learn from WBB

[billyhoyle]

Seeing the ratings this year from the women’s ncaa tournament is pretty mind blowing in terms of how the sport has grown in the past decade. If it can continue like this, there’s no doubt WBB will be revenue generating and highly profitable. Ratings for wrestling have actually decreased over this same period though. 
 

Do you think this is an anomaly related to Caitlin Clark or are there lessons that NCAA wrestling can take from this growth? 

Edited April 6 by billyhoyle

[ionel]

5 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

Seeing the ratings this year from the women’s ncaa tournament is pretty mind blowing in terms of how the sport has grown in the past decade. If it can continue like this, there’s no doubt WBB will be revenue generating and highly profitable. Ratings for wrestling have actually decreased over this same period though. 
 

Do you think this is an anomaly related to Caitlin Clark or are there lessons that NCAA wrestling can take from this growth? 

We've had brackets since 1928.  They just got brackets in 1928.  What is there to learn?

Thinks it's a Clark/Reece thing this year but what are the numbers wrestling finals vs WBB?  

[billyhoyle]

24 minutes ago, ionel said:

We've had brackets since 1928.  They just got brackets in 1928.  What is there to learn?

Thinks it's a Clark/Reece thing this year but what are the numbers wrestling finals vs WBB?  

I’m not sure about this year for wrestling, but it’s a very depressing trend. Also I don’t know what you mean with your point about brackets?

 

I think WBB is getting in the millions for every game and 10+ for the Iowa/LSU game. I imagine the UConn game is similar. The growth has been incredible. 

[ionel]

17 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

 Also I don’t know what you mean with your point about brackets?

Straight from the mouth of the Vice President.  Our government wouldn't lie to us would she?  

[Offthemat]

1 hour ago, billyhoyle said:

Seeing the ratings this year from the women’s ncaa tournament is pretty mind blowing in terms of how the sport has grown in the past decade. If it can continue like this, there’s no doubt WBB will be revenue generating and highly profitable. Ratings for wrestling have actually decreased over this same period though. 
 

Do you think this is an anomaly related to Caitlin Clark or are there lessons that NCAA wrestling can take from this growth? 

The helter skelter of the NCAA wrestling tournament does not lend itself well to tv viewership.  Maybe if it was a dual championship it would get more viewers.

[CHROMEBIRD]

WBB is a much much better product now than it was 20 years ago. It helps when Shaq and other media personalities say WBB is more fun to watch than MBB.  Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese have a lot of star power, but there are as many skilled and charismatic characters as there are in wrestling. WBB also has broad appeal, so it's easy for fans of different stripes to become drawn in. On the other hand, if you listen to the things wrestlers say and how the sport is marketed (i.e. the commercials and video shorts during Nationals) and it feels like the sport targets a very specific demographic. 

Imo WBB is not that different from the way women's soccer and the USWNT has grown its fanbase and support. 

[jchapman]

WBB is fun for people to watch because the media manufactures storylines and human interest stories.  Kinda like why people like watching the Olympics.  The actual athletic, basketball product is bad. 

[CoachC]

Since the NCAA will only allow 1 championship, what do we think of doing a dual national championship, and then do the individual championship with no team champ. I know that would be a HUGE change, the casual fans would probably enjoy that better.

[WildTurk]

Clark is the Goat. Unlimited range, passing ability and leadership. Well spoken behind the microphone aswell.  Legendary career. 

 

Crazy thing is she could come back for another year if she wanted to crush her own records. She is giving another girl an opportunity down the line.  Mad props to her. 

[billyhoyle]

2 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

WBB is a much much better product now than it was 20 years ago. It helps when Shaq and other media personalities say WBB is more fun to watch than MBB.  Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese have a lot of star power, but there are as many skilled and charismatic characters as there are in wrestling. WBB also has broad appeal, so it's easy for fans of different stripes to become drawn in. On the other hand, if you listen to the things wrestlers say and how the sport is marketed (i.e. the commercials and video shorts during Nationals) and it feels like the sport targets a very specific demographic. 

Imo WBB is not that different from the way women's soccer and the USWNT has grown its fanbase and support. 

 

1 hour ago, jchapman said:

WBB is fun for people to watch because the media manufactures storylines and human interest stories.  Kinda like why people like watching the Olympics.  The actual athletic, basketball product is bad. 

So the ratings came out for the final 4 semifinals.  14.2 Million for Iowa/LSU and 7 million for the South Carolina game. Even if the numbers aren't sustainable without Caitlin Clark, if they can maintain in the 7-10 million viewer range for these NCAA games (sweet 16 through final 4), they will get A LOT more in the next TV contract (potentially enough to make the sport profitable, as is the case for MBB). The advantage over women's soccer is the NCAA WBB is every year vs the world cup being every four years.

Can wrestling ever appeal to a larger group of people through better marketing or will it always be niche due to the nature/weirdness of the sport? Obviously it won't be as big as women's basketball, but it's now clearly possible to take a non revenue sport and make it profitable. 

 

50 minutes ago, CoachC said:

Since the NCAA will only allow 1 championship, what do we think of doing a dual national championship, and then do the individual championship with no team champ. I know that would be a HUGE change, the casual fans would probably enjoy that better.

I think one benefit to this approach would be a build up of hype.  The ncaa basketball tournament has benefitted from each round drawing in more interest.  Wrestling is over in 3 days, so by the time a casual fan has heard of any of the wrestlers, it's all over. With this, there could be some duals on ESPN over the course of a couple weeks, and then one big tournament at the end. 

Edited April 6 by billyhoyle

[Greenwave]

The first thing wrestling needs to do is figure out how to stop these coaches from holding wrestlers out against other ranked wrestlers.    It’s hard to build a story line that casual viewers do not  understand.

[Jason Bryant]

Lifetime sport where anyone can pick up a ball and throw it into a hoop (not necessarily well) vs. a combat sport with nuance rules, multiple styles and a sports culture that didn’t grow up competing it it.

We can learn some things but ultimately, it’s a tough sell to convert people without prior experience in the sport and we have this habit of turning off our own people to it as well.

[Alces Alces Gigas]

You get to see a stud BB player for 6  games (NCAA Tournament) at scheduled times and watching that stud BB player can consume the better part of an evening or afternoon.  

You get to watch a stud wrestler for 5 matches for 35 min(if he is good, less time than that) total at random times.

 

Stud BB players can come in and save the day with a late game run.  Same thing rarely happens in wrestling (stars, moon, starting weight, and team score all have to align for it to happen) 

 

 

 

[Fadzaev2]

6 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Lifetime sport where anyone can pick up a ball and throw it into a hoop (not necessarily well) vs. a combat sport with nuance rules, multiple styles and a sports culture that didn’t grow up competing it it.

We can learn some things but ultimately, it’s a tough sell to convert people without prior experience in the sport and we have this habit of turning off our own people to it as well.

I have said this for years.....anybody can shoot baskets or play catch with a football or baseball, but how many can just go out and wrestle....they might get dirty, break a sweat, rip their clothes and could easily get hurt.   I watched WBB this year mainly due to the Caitlyn Clark and then the Reece deal, so that probably helped a lot.  A good friend of mine, who was a great Hawkeye wrestler said he had never watched so much girls basketball.  I remember in the early 70's, ABC, along with Frank Gifford, focused on Dan Gable, actually did a special on him and his training leading up to the games which included Ben and John Peterson.  It did create some interest in wrestling nationwide, but it can't just be a one time thing. Gifford liked Gable so much, that he wrote a book called "Gifford on Courage" (which is in my coaching library).  This book included Dan Gable.  Also, most of the media people out there, didn't wrestle.  Again, they have the basketball and football mentality.  That doesn't help the cause.  I have to say, the BTN was great this year, which helps and ESPN covered the whole NCAA tournament, but the average viewer isn't going to pay for, or follow wrestling when it's split up between ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU......I'm at NCAA's, and I tape it too, but most people aren't going to follow our tournament on three different formats.  I also do think Flo and Track help us....although though they have a number of critics.  It's too bad ESPN couldn't focus on a superstar in our sport, like Gabe Steveson, Aaron Brooks, Kyle Dake, Jordan Burroughs, David Taylor, etc. like they did Gable....it would be great for the upcoming Olympic Games, and wow, how about the upcoming Olympic Trials.  Fadz  (45 NCAA's/39 in a row and counting)

[Gantry]

7 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Lifetime sport where anyone can pick up a ball and throw it into a hoop (not necessarily well) vs. a combat sport with nuance rules, multiple styles and a sports culture that didn’t grow up competing it it.

We can learn some things but ultimately, it’s a tough sell to convert people without prior experience in the sport and we have this habit of turning off our own people to it as well.

Yep, if you didn't wrestle or have a kid who wrestled you have no idea how to actually follow a wrestling match.  When my nephews started wrestling I had to explain in real time to my family all the various scoring, penalty points and nuances to them - even after half a dozen duals they couldn't grasp most of it.  It also made me realize how arbitrary and difficult this sport is to follow for the "casual fan" - they'd often ask why that is and most times I couldn't answer.

[ionel]

3 hours ago, Alces Alces Gigas said:

You get to see a stud BB player for 6  games (NCAA Tournament) at scheduled times and watching that stud BB player can consume the better part of an evening or afternoon.  

You get to watch a stud wrestler for 5 matches for 35 min(if he is good, less time than that) total at random times.

 

But if it were a dual championship, round of 16/8 & 4/2 on consecutive Fri/Sun ...  

[Caveira]

20 hours ago, ionel said:

Straight from the mouth of the Vice President.  Our government wouldn't lie to us would she?  

0:37 second mark.   Kamala gives us a history lesson and says women were not allowed the right to have brackets until 2022.  
 

 

[Caveira]

20 hours ago, Offthemat said:

The helter skelter of the NCAA wrestling tournament does not lend itself well to tv viewership.  Maybe if it was a dual championship it would get more viewers.

Also.  Are those tv numbers accurate?  Last year they were saying they don’t include the streaming services.   Is this true?

[PortaJohn]

10 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Lifetime sport where anyone can pick up a ball and throw it into a hoop (not necessarily well) vs. a combat sport with nuance rules, multiple styles and a sports culture that didn’t grow up competing it it.

We can learn some things but ultimately, it’s a tough sell to convert people without prior experience in the sport and we have this habit of turning off our own people to it as well.

I've been a broken record on this but my belief has always been that wrestling's best strategy is to follow the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu blueprint and piggy back off the UFC.  He might get a lot of hate but someone like Bo Nickal being extremely successful in the octagon is important to the future of wrestling.  Then comes the work of the community capitalizing off of it.  Living in the Philly area, despite it being in PA, I've talked to countless dads who would have gladly signed up their kids for wrestling but didn't know where to start.  Luckily for them there's a bjj school on every corner. 

[billyhoyle]

59 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I've been a broken record on this but my belief has always been that wrestling's best strategy is to follow the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu blueprint and piggy back off the UFC.  He might get a lot of hate but someone like Bo Nickal being extremely successful in the octagon is important to the future of wrestling.  Then comes the work of the community capitalizing off of it.  Living in the Philly area, despite it being in PA, I've talked to countless dads who would have gladly signed up their kids for wrestling but didn't know where to start.  Luckily for them there's a bjj school on every corner. 

I think this has been tried, but the best that can happen is just leveraging people from mma who have become notable to bring attention to it. The problem is that if anything ufc is becoming less popular, and it’s definitely becoming less geared to support the wrestling style. And most of the things mma fans like about the sport aren’t present in wrestling.

I do think what others have pointed out about the scheduling of the individual tournament vs a dual format is a great point. 

[PortaJohn]

12 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

I think this has been tried, but the best that can happen is just leveraging people from mma who have become notable to bring attention to it. The problem is that if anything ufc is becoming less popular, and it’s definitely becoming less geared to support the wrestling style. And most of the things mma fans like about the sport aren’t present in wrestling.

I do think what others have pointed out about the scheduling of the individual tournament vs a dual format is a great point. 

1) I thought 2023 was the best year the UFC has ever had.  Viewership was up and they brought in over 1 billion in revenue.

2) Haven't gone through all the comments.  Is this based on the theory that wrestling will grow if it's presented more as a team sport?  I've always found that theory fanciful.  Would love to be proven wrong. 

[Voice of the Quakers]

2 hours ago, Caveira said:

Also.  Are those tv numbers accurate?  Last year they were saying they don’t include the streaming services.   Is this true?

Whether streaming is included in those TV numbers "depends", but you can assume that most of the viewing to the finals matches are captured in Andrew Spey's chart.

[Caveira]

33 minutes ago, Voice of the Quakers said:

Whether streaming is included in those TV numbers "depends", but you can assume that most of the viewing to the finals matches are captured in Andrew Spey's chart.

I don’t have facts.   I hope you’re wrong from our sports perspective.  
 

If this trend keeps up.  Our utopia of having all these matches televised may be over.   Not having announcers on the mats is sort of not cool from an investment in this product standpoint.    I don’t wanna argue re hash the fact that some of the posters hate any “announcer” that is put out there……  

but in sales……. Going -28% YoY generally gets a bunch of people fired.   

[CHROMEBIRD]

20 hours ago, jchapman said:

WBB is fun for people to watch because the media manufactures storylines and human interest stories.  Kinda like why people like watching the Olympics.  The actual athletic, basketball product is bad. 

False. WBB now is nothing like it was in the 90s/00s when it was a bunch of players standing around the perimeter and passing the ball around until the one tall player got open under the hoop for a layup (basketball's version of playing the edge and top riding). It's way more fast paced and physical now.

Tbf, I think the college wrestling today is far more technical and skilled than it was 20 years ago. It's just that casual fans don't understand the sport beyond seeing pins, clean shots, and big mat returns. Within the wrestling community, the same can be said for why a lot of people don't watch Greco.

[CHROMEBIRD]

2 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

Living in the Philly area, despite it being in PA, I've talked to countless dads who would have gladly signed up their kids for wrestling but didn't know where to start.  Luckily for them there's a bjj school on every corner. 

Do schools still teach wrestling in PE nowadays? We did wrestling in middle and high school PE, and it was a good way to create interest and knowledge in the sport. All of a sudden kids who were too short for basketball, too small or football, or too athletic for baseball (ha ha) had a sport they could be great at.

But my kid's schools didn't teach wrestling in PE and when my wife was in high school, PE wasn't required after freshman year. So, perhaps some opportunities were lost.

One difference between kids taking up BJJ/MMA is that many might be there to learn self-defense rather than a sport. I don't know how well that translates into a longer term interest, esp when they move on from it.

Edited April 7 by CHROMEBIRD