Can wrestling learn from WBB

[billyhoyle]

51 minutes ago, Caveira said:

I don’t have facts.   I hope you’re wrong from our sports perspective.  
 

If this trend keeps up.  Our utopia of having all these matches televised may be over.   Not having announcers on the mats is sort of not cool from an investment in this product standpoint.    I don’t wanna argue re hash the fact that some of the posters hate any “announcer” that is put out there……  

but in sales……. Going -28% YoY generally gets a bunch of people fired.   

For now, wrestling is still included in the deal with ESPN that includes WBB, lacrosse, baseball, and some others through 2032. But yeah, I think we basically have until then to turn the trend around.
 

The marketability of the sport with having guys not wrestle during the season, having a single team completely dominate, minimal effort to simplify the format through favoring duals, having the tournament impossible to follow unless you are related to the athletes, etc needs to change. I think WBB has provided a blueprint that of course can’t be matched because more people like basketball, but it can be used to maybe get back to 1 million ish range. 

[FanOfPurdueWrestling]

14 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Lifetime sport where anyone can pick up a ball and throw it into a hoop (not necessarily well) vs. a combat sport with nuance rules, multiple styles and a sports culture that didn’t grow up competing it it.

We can learn some things but ultimately, it’s a tough sell to convert people without prior experience in the sport and we have this habit of turning off our own people to it as well.

Yeah, it’s a niche-ish sport. If you didn’t do it, you’re probably not going to watch it regularly. It sucks but it true.

 

The way to get more viewers is to get more participants and options to train, growing the sport grows the audience. 

[Caveira]

42 minutes ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

Yeah, it’s a niche-ish sport. If you didn’t do it, you’re probably not going to watch it regularly. It sucks but it true.

 

The way to get more viewers is to get more participants and options to train, growing the sport grows the audience. 

I’m surprised sort of.  I thought participation is growing.  It is not.   With the popularity of the ufc and guys like Joe Rogan saying wrestling is one of the if not the best base for mma that surprises me.  I wonder if there are growing numbers (for wrestling) in mma/bjj gyms.  I know they are popping up all over in my area.    At least those numbers would not be tracked by the below link.
 

My soap box.  Please stop trying to turn the rules into freestyle.   That will kill the sport domestically.   (Imo).   4 point turns didn’t stop stalling.  3 point take downs didn’t.  Changing rules on top to try for a pin didn’t.  Mandatory (silly) 5 counts everyone exploits didn’t.   Those convoluted going out of bounds rules didn’t.   Just call stalling!    And end 4 hour challenge bricks.   
 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268028/participation-in-us-high-school-wrestling/

[Scouts Honor]

no. we aren't pushed to the masses like basketball is.

[FanOfPurdueWrestling]

34 minutes ago, Caveira said:

I’m surprised sort of.  I thought participation is growing.  It is not.   With the popularity of the ufc and guys like Joe Rogan saying wrestling is one of the if not the best base for mma that surprises me.  I wonder if there are growing numbers (for wrestling) in mma/bjj gyms.  I know they are popping up all over in my area.    At least those numbers would not be tracked by the below link.
 

My soap box.  Please stop trying to turn the rules into freestyle.   That will kill the sport domestically.   (Imo).   4 point turns didn’t stop stalling.  3 point take downs didn’t.  Changing rules on top to try for a pin didn’t.  Mandatory (silly) 5 counts everyone exploits didn’t.   Those convoluted going out of bounds rules didn’t.   Just call stalling!    And end 4 hour challenge bricks.   
 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268028/participation-in-us-high-school-wrestling/

I believe the most recent numbers show over 300k at the hs level. Growth happened but almost solely due to women’s participation growing so rapidly and drastically. 

[Caveira]

16 minutes ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said:

I believe the most recent numbers show over 300k at the hs level. Growth happened but almost solely due to women’s participation growing so rapidly and drastically. 

I meant men’s.  I also didn’t clarify so good / valid point.   But if men’s high school numbers are shrinking over time it will decrease the people who are interested in watching  mens ncaa folkstyle going forward.    International viewer ship will slow first….. then folkstyle.  Unfortunately.   Gotta turn the trend around.   I didn’t do the math. But what’s the decline over 10 years.    10/12% ish?   That’s not insignificant.   

[d_jizzle_05]

Get rid of "riding". It's boring. It looks homoerotic. My girlfriend sniggers every time she sees two guys "dry humping" and says, "Why do you watch this gay shit?" I'm sure millions of non-fans feel the same way. Less "riding", more high-amplitude throws, please.

[Caveira]

15 minutes ago, d_jizzle_05 said:

Get rid of "riding". It's boring. It looks homoerotic. My girlfriend sniggers every time she sees two guys "dry humping" and says, "Why do you watch this gay shit?" I'm sure millions of non-fans feel the same way. Less "riding", more high-amplitude throws, please.

I would like you to show the message board the tv ratings of the senior men’s world freestyle championships vs the ncaa wrestling championships.   Someone already posted the ncaa version.    

[d_jizzle_05]

4 minutes ago, Caveira said:

I would like you to show the message board the tv ratings of the senior men’s world freestyle championships vs the ncaa wrestling championships.   Someone already posted the ncaa version.    

So the inference is "riding" equals better tv ratings? Then just have every match start with a wrestler "on top". Give a point for every minute of riding time and it should be a ratings bonanza. 

[Scouts Honor]

here is what i would say to you

while i am kicking your *** 

you are thinking about sex? 

[jmoney]

17 hours ago, Greenwave said:

The first thing wrestling needs to do is figure out how to stop these coaches from holding wrestlers out against other ranked wrestlers.    It’s hard to build a story line that casual viewers do not  understand.

Reminds me why I stopped being a boxing fan overnite: De La Hoya and Bob Arum conspiring to avoid putting a single undefeated fighter at risk for three years to try and create a single mega fight as well as Floyd Mayweather ducking Pacman in his prime. 

[jmoney]

18 hours ago, Greenwave said:

The first thing wrestling needs to do is figure out how to stop these coaches from holding wrestlers out against other ranked wrestlers.    It’s hard to build a story line that casual viewers do not  understand.

Reminds me why I stopped being a boxing fan overnite: De La Hoya and Bob Arum conspiring to avoid putting a single undefeated fighter at risk for three years to try and create a single mega fight as well as Floyd Mayweather ducking Pacman in his prime. 

[Caveira]

1 hour ago, d_jizzle_05 said:

So the inference is "riding" equals better tv ratings? Then just have every match start with a wrestler "on top". Give a point for every minute of riding time and it should be a ratings bonanza. 

A) If you can’t get past your girlfriend making homophobic jokes about this sport you shouldn’t have a vote on what the sport should look like going forward.  

B) what gets you close to true fighting?   Riding to a fall / quasi submission / real domination.   Or that flippy flippy stuff in freestyle.   Someone earlier or in an other thread trying to tie wrestling mma success both in terms of getting a real base to move to the ufc and entertainment value.   I counted the championship bracket in today’s ott qualifier.   Tech falls / falls vs decisions.   75 tf/fall va 35 decisions.   Almost 68.1% of the matches ended in some flippy leg lace situation.   I’m an Iowa fan and I don’t remember Warner getting two tech falls in a row ever.   Let alone two tech falls and scoring 8 points in his next match.

You still didn’t look up the freestyle world championship us based tv viewership.  Did they put it live on ESPN during march madness?  Of course they didn’t cause it isn’t a product people want to watch in mass.  

[WildTurk]

3 hours ago, d_jizzle_05 said:

Get rid of "riding". It's boring. It looks homoerotic. My girlfriend sniggers every time she sees two guys "dry humping" and says, "Why do you watch this gay shit?" I'm sure millions of non-fans feel the same way. Less "riding", more high-amplitude throws, please.

Thankfully we say "snicker" where I come from.

Your girlfriend needs to grow up, and show us pics, before she becomes wife material.  

Who gives a crap what "millions of non wrestling fans" think?  I sure as hell don't. The best part about being almost 40 is losing the give a crap feeling of others thoughts and opinions of you. 

You do you, and be confident when you do it. 

[PortaJohn]

7 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Do schools still teach wrestling in PE nowadays? We did wrestling in middle and high school PE, and it was a good way to create interest and knowledge in the sport. All of a sudden kids who were too short for basketball, too small or football, or too athletic for baseball (ha ha) had a sport they could be great at.

But my kid's schools didn't teach wrestling in PE and when my wife was in high school, PE wasn't required after freshman year. So, perhaps some opportunities were lost.

One difference between kids taking up BJJ/MMA is that many might be there to learn self-defense rather than a sport. I don't know how well that translates into a longer term interest, esp when they move on from it.

No, not that I'm aware of.  It was part of the curriculum when I was a youngster.  Might be a regional thing now.  I can ask friends & family who live in central PA if their kids still have it.  

Maybe wrestling needs an Enter the Dragon or Karate Kid movie to spark interest.  Bo Nickal starring in Bloodsport 2

[Brownwrestler1975]

The trolls of social media are no help with the homoerotic crap, who are mostly couch potatoes, and no zilch about both the physical and mental intensity of wrestling. 

[wrestle87]

7 hours ago, d_jizzle_05 said:

Get rid of "riding". It's boring. It looks homoerotic. My girlfriend sniggers every time she sees two guys "dry humping" and says, "Why do you watch this gay shit?" I'm sure millions of non-fans feel the same way. Less "riding", more high-amplitude throws, please.

You should get a better girlfriend...

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 hours ago, Caveira said:

A) If you can’t get past your girlfriend making homophobic jokes about this sport you shouldn’t have a vote on what the sport should look like going forward.  

B) what gets you close to true fighting?   Riding to a fall / quasi submission / real domination.   Or that flippy flippy stuff in freestyle.   Someone earlier or in an other thread trying to tie wrestling mma success both in terms of getting a real base to move to the ufc and entertainment value.   I counted the championship bracket in today’s ott qualifier.   Tech falls / falls vs decisions.   75 tf/fall va 35 decisions.   Almost 68.1% of the matches ended in some flippy leg lace situation.   I’m an Iowa fan and I don’t remember Warner getting two tech falls in a row ever.   Let alone two tech falls and scoring 8 points in his next match.

You still didn’t look up the freestyle world championship us based tv viewership.  Did they put it live on ESPN during march madness?  Of course they didn’t cause it isn’t a product people want to watch in mass.  

There are other factors than just style that drive relative viewership. I think school affiliation is a huge part of the interest. Just read this board to see how important school is to fans.

[MinnesotaMustang]

I don’t think it’s “the sport of women’s basketball,” I think it is Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese. They’re stars and the media has built a lot of drama and interest around them the past few years. 

[Alces Alces Gigas]

One thing that hurts our sport is the fact that it is very hard to find and see results!    There is no one spot where all  results can be found.    

Sometimes the brackets are on Flo, sometimes on Track. Dual results are tough to find!   The first place I go is the host school but I find that sometimes the visiting school posts results faster (especially if they win) 

USA Wrestling results should be found on the USA Wrestling site!

Watch the post match interviews from.this weekends last chance tournament,    can't hear the questions as they hold the interview within earshot of the gym (this happens all the time at all levels) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

11 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

No, not that I'm aware of.  It was part of the curriculum when I was a youngster.  Might be a regional thing now.  I can ask friends & family who live in central PA if their kids still have it.  

Maybe wrestling needs an Enter the Dragon or Karate Kid movie to spark interest.  Bo Nickal starring in Bloodsport 2

I think most states have removed wrestling from their PE curriculum within the past 30 years.  A friend of mine, an Ohio State PE grad recently told me that tOSU eliminated PE as a major, because it PE no longer a state requirement to earn a diploma.  tOSU was ranked as the #1 PE program on the planet at the time.

Also, as far as the BJJ/UFC connection.  Please keep in mind that the whole reason that the UFC exists was that it was created to be a PPV infomercial for BJJ.

Edited April 8 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[JuanMogen]

19 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

False. WBB now is nothing like it was in the 90s/00s when it was a bunch of players standing around the perimeter and passing the ball around until the one tall player got open under the hoop for a layup (basketball's version of playing the edge and top riding). It's way more fast paced and physical now.

Tbf, I think the college wrestling today is far more technical and skilled than it was 20 years ago. It's just that casual fans don't understand the sport beyond seeing pins, clean shots, and big mat returns. Within the wrestling community, the same can be said for why a lot of people don't watch Greco.

Greco is a professional chest bumping contest until the ref decides who is going to lay belly down and give the earth a great big hug. 

[PortaJohn]

37 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Please keep in mind that the whole reason that the UFC exists was that it was created to be a PPV infomercial for BJJ.

I think everyone older than 35 and follows the UFC is aware of this.  Bill Wallace loves reminding everyone in his interviews 

[Jim L]

18 hours ago, Caveira said:

I would like you to show the message board the tv ratings of the senior men’s world freestyle championships vs the ncaa wrestling championships.   Someone already posted the ncaa version.    

NCAA WBB has much higher ratings than the WNBA,  for the same reason that NCAA wrestling is popular. It is familiarity and long time loyalty to your alma mater/ local university.

 

 

[Caveira]

2 minutes ago, Jim L said:

NCAA WBB has much higher ratings than the WNBA,  for the same reason that NCAA wrestling is popular. It is familiarity and long time loyalty to your alma mater/ local university.

 

 

So is the argument.  Freestyle is a far superior product.  But the viewership and attendance is lower for big tourneys cause of university loyalties?

how would you explain mma going from nothing to better (financially) than boxing which used to be the ppv king?