When chasing the money fails or does not improve.

[Greenwave]

So one of the analytical members should have this.   A lot of smaller programs, ( App State, NDST, SDST, NUI, along with others). recruited, trained and invested in wrestler's who moved on for money.    How many improved their ranking, after turning their back on schools that recruited them and invested in them?  

[CHROMEBIRD]

Just now, Greenwave said:

So one of the analytical members should have this.   A lot of smaller programs, ( App State, NDST, SDST, NUI, along with others). recruited, trained and invested in wrestler's who moved on for money.    How many improved their ranking, after turning their back on schools that recruited them and invested in them?  

Maybe college wrestling needs a version of the UWW's rule for when a wrestler switches sports nationalities. If a wrestler is a prior AA and then transfers, the new school compensates the old school for the training & development they put into that wrestler. And/or a % of their NIL earnings are transferred. There could be increasing amounts if the transferring wrestler is an NCAA qualifier, top 3 conference placewinner, AA, multiple-time AA, national champ, etc. (Grad transfers excepted)

[Paul158]

On 3/22/2024 at 6:33 PM, CHROMEBIRD said:

Maybe college wrestling needs a version of the UWW's rule for when a wrestler switches sports nationalities. If a wrestler is a prior AA and then transfers, the new school compensates the old school for the training & development they put into that wrestler. And/or a % of their NIL earnings are transferred. There could be increasing amounts if the transferring wrestler is an NCAA qualifier, top 3 conference placewinner, AA, multiple-time AA, national champ, etc. (Grad transfers excepted)

I think that is the only way they get this ship straightened out. This ship was heading North and now its heading South. Unfortunately, it is heading straight for a 400-foot waterfall at about 30 knots.

[Caveira]

Isn’t the problem that the school is literally not paying any nil.   It’s third party external people/businesses etc.  How do you penalize a school if some business owner pays more nil money in a bigger market vs small. 
 

for the record.  Nil is / will ruin smaller schools.  But …. Without eliminating or banning nil…. It is what it is ?

[Wrestleknownothing]

On 3/22/2024 at 5:33 PM, CHROMEBIRD said:

Maybe college wrestling needs a version of the UWW's rule for when a wrestler switches sports nationalities. If a wrestler is a prior AA and then transfers, the new school compensates the old school for the training & development they put into that wrestler. And/or a % of their NIL earnings are transferred. There could be increasing amounts if the transferring wrestler is an NCAA qualifier, top 3 conference placewinner, AA, multiple-time AA, national champ, etc. (Grad transfers excepted)

This will never happen. This would cross the line to athletes being employees. No way the schools want that.

[1032004]

Transfers (not counting transferring from schools that cut their programs) that AA’d and achieved their highest finish this season.  Of course not all of these “chased the money”:

Anthony Noto

Caleb Smith

Austin Gomez

Quinn Kinner

Mitchell Mesenbrink

Izzak Olejnik

Michael Caliendo

Edmond Ruth

Trey Munoz

Lucas Davison

Yaraslau Slavikouski

(Apologies if I missed any, also didn’t count guys that finished equal to a prior placement)

Edited March 27 by 1032004

[flyingcement]

Just now, 1032004 said:

Transfers (not counting transferring from schools that cut their programs) that AA’d and achieved their highest finish this season.  Of course not all of these “chased the money”:

Anthony Noto

Caleb Smith

Austin Gomez

Quinn Kinner

Mitchell Mesenbrink

Izzak Olejnik

Michael Caliendo

Edmond Ruth

Trey Munoz

Lucas Davison

Yaraslau Slavikouski

Your list makes me think of a good idea: who are the best transfers at each weight who went from a bigger program to a smaller one.  From your list alone you have Noto from NC State to Lock Haven and Quinn Kinner from Ohio State to Rider.  Going back in time of course you have Kolat and Marstellar.  Evan Wick from Wisconsin to Cal Poly. Who else am I missing

[ionel]

30 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Isn’t the problem that the school is literally not paying any nil.   It’s third party external people/businesses etc.  How do you penalize a school if some business owner pays more nil money in a bigger market vs small. 
 

for the record.  Nil is / will ruin smaller schools.  But …. Without eliminating or banning nil…. It is what it is ?

Well its not really NIL money.  The best example of NIL are Young's deal with Dr. Pepper and more recently Caitlin Clark.  Both of this athletes have image value and it doesn't matter what university they are at it has value.  For all the money spent at say Michigan or Iowa show us some actual image value and how it was monetized.  

[Caveira]

19 minutes ago, ionel said:

Well its not really NIL money.  The best example of NIL are Young's deal with Dr. Pepper and more recently Caitlin Clark.  Both of this athletes have image value and it doesn't matter what university they are at it has value.  For all the money spent at say Michigan or Iowa show us some actual image value and how it was monetized.  

Is part of the deal showing nil value ?   I didn’t think it was.    So that’s not relevant or is it?   Either way the schools are not paying nil…. Third parties are.   And let’s not pretend it isn’t happening everywhere including psu.   Isn’t like 50% of psu’s lineup transfers.   
 

nil will ruin college sports as we know it.  But good old supply and demand will eventually regulate it.   The sports that make $$$$ won’t be ground into oblivion or else the money train will dry up.   It’s the smaller sports that are in bigger jeopardy.  

[Wrestleknownothing]

27 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

Your list makes me think of a good idea: who are the best transfers at each weight who went from a bigger program to a smaller one.  From your list alone you have Noto from NC State to Lock Haven and Quinn Kinner from Ohio State to Rider.  Going back in time of course you have Kolat and Marstellar.  Evan Wick from Wisconsin to Cal Poly. Who else am I missing

Beard - PSU to Lehigh

[ionel]

13 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Is part of the deal showing nil value ?   I didn’t think it was.    So that’s not relevant or is it?   Either way the schools are not paying nil…. Third parties are.   And let’s not pretend it isn’t happening everywhere including psu.   Isn’t like 50% of psu’s lineup transfers.   
 

nil will ruin college sports as we know it.  But good old supply and demand will eventually regulate it.   The sports that make $$$$ won’t be ground into oblivion or else the money train will dry up.   It’s the smaller sports that are in bigger jeopardy.  

I said nothing about schools paying NIL.  Dr Pepper pays for Young's image State Farm for Clark's.  Lets say Woods, show us the image value the donar gained from the 6 figure deal.  If you want go with your least favorite Michigan, Penn St or even the freshman Ohio St wrestler.  Where's the value from the image 6 figures?  Its not NIL its just donors paying athletes like back in the 60s/70s.  

Edited March 27 by ionel

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, ionel said:

I said nothing about schools paying NIL.  Dr Pepper pays for Young's image State Farm for Clark's.  Lets say Woods, show us the image value the donar gained from the 6 figure deal.  If you want go with your least favorite Michigan, Penn St or even the freshman Ohio St wrestler.  Where's the value from the image 6 figures?  Its not NIL its just donors paying athletes like back in the 60s/70s.  

Prolly true.  How do you police it.  You can’t.  As a business owner if I wanna take a $x loss and not have a chance to recoup it then  they risk my very business.  It’s not policeable from that “smell test” perspective.   Proving nil value is about as subjective as it gets.  
 

But still.  83% or more of posters say school xyz is paying out nil.    They are not.  External third parties are.  

[ionel]

2 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Prolly true.  How do you police it.  You can’t.  As a business owner if I wanna take a $x loss and not have a chance to recoup it then  they risk my very business.  It’s not policeable from that “smell test” perspective.   Proving nil value is about as subjective as it gets.  
 

But still.  83% or more of posters say school xyz is paying out nil.    They are not.  External third parties are.  

And yes thats the problem with NIL.  NCAA wasn't even enforcing the rules before NIL and many of us said NIL would open up a whole new can of worms, it'd be the wild west and no way NCAA could keep up. 

[flyingcement]

Just now, ionel said:

And yes thats the problem with NIL.  NCAA wasn't even enforcing the rules before NIL and many of us said NIL would open up a whole new can of worms, it'd be the wild west and no way NCAA could keep up. 

And in the short term, no one could blame any young wrestler from accepting a 6 digit endorsement deal for a team that loses money in a sport that very few care about.  It does feel like we need some strong leadership in the sport at the moment

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

And in the short term, no one could blame any young wrestler from accepting a 6 digit endorsement deal for a team that loses money in a sport that very few care about.  It does feel like we need some strong leadership in the sport at the moment

I'd give you a like or a thanks but Bob took those from us so here's a banana .  

Edited March 27 by ionel

[ionel]

I may take that fine duck over to the Smokers meat thread and see what the grill boys can do with it.   

[Bigbrog]

What if NIL/scholarship deals included stimulations around leaving...ex. NIL's are contracts and if an athlete doesn't stay for the length of the NIL contract they have to pay back a certain percentage of their deal?  Sort of how the military academy's do it.

[Doublehalf]

How much on average are wrestlers getting in NIL money? It's got to pale in comparison with Football and basketball... just curious if anyone has insight into the amounts the top and mid tier guys get?

[Wrestleknownothing]

50 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

What if NIL/scholarship deals included stimulations around leaving...ex. NIL's are contracts and if an athlete doesn't stay for the length of the NIL contract they have to pay back a certain percentage of their deal?  Sort of how the military academy's do it.

specifically disallowed by the NIL rules, which is not to say it never happens.

[ionel]

53 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

What if NIL/scholarship deals included stimulations around leaving...ex. NIL's are contracts and if an athlete doesn't stay for the length of the NIL contract they have to pay back a certain percentage of their deal?  Sort of how the military academy's do it.

But then its pay to play not image & likeness.

[Bigbrog]

4 minutes ago, ionel said:

But then its pay to play not image & likeness.

Good point

[Bigbrog]

5 minutes ago, ionel said:

But then its pay to play not image & likeness.

Wonder if there is legalese that could get around this...for instance it is around how they get paid for their image and likeness?  Again, just ideas but may be impossible to do.

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

Wonder if there is legalese that could get around this...for instance it is around how they get paid for their image and likeness?  Again, just ideas but may be impossible to do.

If actually image & likeness a company could have stipulation/contract for say 6 local TV commercials during the year for the 6 figures with a rolling renewable deal next year.  Thus local value from the NIL.  It appeared Fix had something with local car dealer.  But what was say Real Wood doing for his 6figs, who actually saw any NIL value?  What we've heard/seen more on the BB & FB side is athletes just making appearances at donor's kids birthday parties for their $s.  I guess you can say its image & likeness but its more like 60s/70s pay to play.  

[wrestle87]

16 hours ago, flyingcement said:

And in the short term, no one could blame any young wrestler from accepting a 6 digit endorsement deal for a team that loses money in a sport that very few care about.  It does feel like we need some strong leadership in the sport at the moment

This right here.  Yeah, US wrestling has almost no leadership presence at the organizational level.  RTC's have effectively replaced Colorado Springs from a wrestling perspective...so what's the point of USA wrestling right now besides pushing paper?

[11986]

17 hours ago, flyingcement said:

Your list makes me think of a good idea: who are the best transfers at each weight who went from a bigger program to a smaller one.  From your list alone you have Noto from NC State to Lock Haven and Quinn Kinner from Ohio State to Rider.  Going back in time of course you have Kolat and Marstellar.  Evan Wick from Wisconsin to Cal Poly. Who else am I missing

guess this would be small to small but JMU's last All-American (last of 2 lol) Mike Coyle was at Rider first.

Big to small going back Joe Gonzalez went from Oklahoma to Cal-State Bakersfield

Jody Staylor UNC to ODU is another one.  

Edited March 27 by 11986