Hawkeyes finish 4th

[NM1965]

21 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I agree.  I've said from the beginning, before anything happened at Iowa or even Angelo committed, I would recruit Angelo only and not the brothers.  It's the only situation I want Iowa involved with the Ferraris.  And it seems more possible now, but I agree, it's a little pie in the sky.

I thought they were a package deal though, you either get all of them or none? 

[Rassling]

13 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

PSA

Flo is apparently dropping another Spencer Lee documentary tonite, this one paired with Austin DeSanto and their high school rivalry. 8pm on BTN. 

Source is thread on GoIowaAwesome. 

It’s like a lot of the late 1980’s reruns. America is fresh out of new ideas so they replay what we already know. Ask the fans at the recent PIAAs. No one gives a crap about yesterday’s news. We want to see more current wrestler documentaries like the phenomenal one they did about RBY. Perhaps then I may rejoin,  then again I doubt it.

[VakAttack]

Just now, NM1965 said:

I thought they were a package deal though, you either get all of them or none? 

At one point they may have been.  I'm not so sure anymore.  We'll see.

[NM1965]

21 minutes ago, fishbane said:

If questions are being asked of the Brandses I don't think the gambling issues are something that could be used as extenuating circumstances to explain the poor performance like injuries.  Gambling is indiscipline and more of a negative mark on them than something excusable. 

Zalesky was an elite coach in 2006.  There were difficult questions about the team's performance in 2006 and I am sure there are some now along with questions about discipline (gambling, Ferrari, gun play, ect.).  The difference is there is no easy answer like there was in 2006.  If Brands had a few assistants that were world champs leave and start to out recruit him at smaller programs then there would be both problems and a ready solution.  If the AD were to can Brands, Iowa would have an equally difficult question to address.  Less risky to stick with them.

The Brands boys are good coaches. Maybe they don't run the strictest ship judging from all the antics we've seen from Hawkeyes over the years, but they can coach guys up for the mat Also I'll say you are probably right that it's less risky to stick with them, but Iowa sure isn't going to be the dominant program again until they get somebody who can beat Cael, and we know the Brands can't beat Cael at recruiting or development. Iowa will have to take a chance on a different coach, or remain 2nd banana until Cael retires. 

[jackwebster]

1 hour ago, wrestle87 said:

Thankfully, that era is over, nail in the coffin.  

Hot take: In 5 years when the kids that hit puberty at the heights of the lockdown become upperclassmen, the pendulum will swing back. You'll have a whole generation of men with baked-in PTSD and nihilistic abandon.  Some innovative coach will harness the trauma and anger.. We'll see a monstrously brutal Iowa Style.

[VakAttack]

30 minutes ago, NM1965 said:

The Brands boys are good coaches. Maybe they don't run the strictest ship judging from all the antics we've seen from Hawkeyes over the years, but they can coach guys up for the mat Also I'll say you are probably right that it's less risky to stick with them, but Iowa sure isn't going to be the dominant program again until they get somebody who can beat Cael, and we know the Brands can't beat Cael at recruiting or development. Iowa will have to take a chance on a different coach, or remain 2nd banana until Cael retires. 

And who is this, o' wise sage?

[NM1965]

17 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

And who is this, o' wise sage?

The Prophesied One. 

[fishbane]

2 hours ago, NM1965 said:

Imagine how good Hamiti would be if he had a good coach. Hamiti has basically been the same guy every year. 

This is a bad take.  I get that people are shitting on Bono and the team hasn't progressed as expected, but the Wisconsin staff deserves credit for Hamiti.  He was not top 6 in college as a high school senior yet that's where he was as a true freshman.  And he did this in the toughest weight class.  There are three junior world champs in his weight this year and last year there were three former NCAA champs.

It appears like he has made genuine strides this year.  He was 24-1 going into Big Tens with the highest bonus rate of his career.  His only loss was 2-0 to Carr, a junior world and NCAA champ that has only lost 5 matches in NCAA competition.  Would a good coach have changed that results?  I have my doubts.  Possibly a great coach could have changed that.  

On Sunday Hamiti looked to have Messenbrink beat.  This wasn't like his losses in years past to Marinelli, Griffith, and  Amine where he wasn't able to generate any meaningful offense and after you'd question what his path to victory could be?  He took Messenbrink down three times, reversed him, and at one point had over 1:00 of riding time advantage.  Most of the points Messenbrink scored could be seen as lapses on Haiti's part.  He should have been able to not give up that TD with 0:02 left in the second.  Then when he got put on his back it looked more like Hamiti rolled to his back to fight the TD and Messenbrink held him there than Messenbrink actively putting him there.

He's probably currently the #4 165 behind O'Toole, Carr, and Messenbrink and he could easily beat Messenbrink by just cleaning up what he did in Big Ten final.  I don't think many coaches could get him past O'Toole and Carr.

[NM1965]

My take on Hamiti is probably a bad one! 

[CHROMEBIRD]

10 minutes ago, fishbane said:

This is a bad take.  I get that people are shitting on Bono and the team hasn't progressed as expected, but the Wisconsin staff deserves credit for Hamiti.  He was not top 6 in college as a high school senior yet that's where he was as a true freshman.  And he did this in the toughest weight class.  There are three junior world champs in his weight this year and last year there were three former NCAA champs.

It appears like he has made genuine strides this year.  He was 24-1 going into Big Tens with the highest bonus rate of his career.  His only loss was 2-0 to Carr, a junior world and NCAA champ that has only lost 5 matches in NCAA competition.  Would a good coach have changed that results?  I have my doubts.  Possibly a great coach could have changed that.  

On Sunday Hamiti looked to have Messenbrink beat.  This wasn't like his losses in years past to Marinelli, Griffith, and  Amine where he wasn't able to generate any meaningful offense and after you'd question what his path to victory could be?  He took Messenbrink down three times, reversed him, and at one point had over 1:00 of riding time advantage.  Most of the points Messenbrink scored could be seen as lapses on Haiti's part.  He should have been able to not give up that TD with 0:02 left in the second.  Then when he got put on his back it looked more like Hamiti rolled to his back to fight the TD and Messenbrink held him there than Messenbrink actively putting him there.

He's probably currently the #4 165 behind O'Toole, Carr, and Messenbrink and he could easily beat Messenbrink by just cleaning up what he did in Big Ten final.  I don't think many coaches could get him past O'Toole and Carr.

Good take. This probably deserves a thread of its own, but what the hell was going through Hamiti's head late in the match? He was still active, taking shots until MM took him down and scored nf with around a minute and a half to go, then he just froze. Did he or his coaches think he still had the lead with RT? It looked like Hamiti looked up at the clock or his corner and just wanted to run down the clock. I don't think he was gassed or shell shocked. More like a mental lapse, like when he gave up that late TD in the 2nd period.

Anyway, if I'm Hamiti I like my chances if slotted on the same side as Mes at NCAAs. Like Caliendo and Fish, he was able to get to MM's legs but Hamiti could actually finish his shots. Put a ton of torque on Mesenbrink due to his length. Mesenbrink has himself a motor and all kinds of crazy attacks and reattacks, but Hamiti has a better odds than others in the weight (including stone hips O'Toole) of outscrambling MM.

[lisa morales]

I'll never understand why Tom & Terry are so afraid of A.J.'s father.  

[Le duke]

Good take. This probably deserves a thread of its own, but what the hell was going through Hamiti's head late in the match? He was still active, taking shots until MM took him down and scored nf with around a minute and a half to go, then he just froze. Did he or his coaches think he still had the lead with RT? It looked like Hamiti looked up at the clock or his corner and just wanted to run down the clock. I don't think he was gassed or shell shocked. More like a mental lapse, like when he gave up that late TD in the 2nd period.
Anyway, if I'm Hamiti I like my chances if slotted on the same side as Mes at NCAAs. Like Caliendo and Fish, he was able to get to MM's legs but Hamiti could actually finish his shots. Put a ton of torque on Mesenbrink due to his length. Mesenbrink has himself a motor and all kinds of crazy attacks and reattacks, but Hamiti has a better odds than others in the weight (including stone hips O'Toole) of outscrambling MM.

I think you are very much underestimating the impact of severe cardiovascular stress on the brain’s ability to process information.

Hamiti died a thousand deaths out there. He overextended himself trying to go with Mesenbrink, and paid for it. I thought he was pinned and the ref was in very poor position when he was on his back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

This probably deserves a thread of its own, but what the hell was going through Hamiti's head late in the match? He was still active, taking shots until MM took him down and scored nf with around a minute and a half to go, then he just froze. Did he or his coaches think he still had the lead with RT? It looked like Hamiti looked up at the clock or his corner and just wanted to run down the clock. I don't think he was gassed or shell shocked. More like a mental lapse, like when he gave up that late TD in the 2nd period.

I don't know.  Obviously mistakes were made and credit to Messenbrink for continuing to wrestle and put pressure on him.  He did not do much after giving up the NF.  It wasn't obvious on the broadcast, but in the arena he had a noticable limp leaving when leaving the mat.  Not sure if that was a pre-existing injury (he had a big brace on the one leg) or it something was possibly overextended in that sequence. Maybe Pyles tweeted about his post match gait?

[Caveira]

34 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I don't know.  Obviously mistakes were made and credit to Messenbrink for continuing to wrestle and put pressure on him.  He did not do much after giving up the NF.  It wasn't obvious on the broadcast, but in the arena he had a noticable limp leaving when leaving the mat.  Not sure if that was a pre-existing injury (he had a big brace on the one leg) or it something was possibly overextended in that sequence. Maybe Pyles tweeted about his post match gait?

He did limp off mat….. maybe waddled is a good word.   (Hamti) I think I asked in the play by play.   Couldn’t : can’t tell if it was a real injury or being super tired.

Edited March 11 by Caveira

[WrestlingRash]

I will wait until I see how Iowa does at NCAAs before I am ready to say its time for the Brands Brothers to skedaddle. But, it sure is looking more and more likely that there will be pressure building on them. If they don't get top 3 at NCAAs, you'd have to think next year is their last shot to get the ship righted. Didn't Zalesky get fired for doing better than them? Its at least comparable. 

[D3UC157]

6 hours ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

It is often harder to win the B1G than the NCAA tournament. Cael has more NCAA titles than he does B1G titles. 

Vincenzo Joseph agrees.

[ionel]

57 minutes ago, fishbane said:

 Obviously mistakes were made and credit to Messenbrink for continuing to wrestle and put pressure on him.  

I give him no credit ... none ... zero!

[PortaJohn]

Just now, ionel said:

I give him no credit ... none ... zero!

fair enough but what about Mesenbrink?

[VakAttack]

6 minutes ago, WrestlingRash said:

I will wait until I see how Iowa does at NCAAs before I am ready to say its time for the Brands Brothers to skedaddle. But, it sure is looking more and more likely that there will be pressure building on them. If they don't get top 3 at NCAAs, you'd have to think next year is their last shot to get the ship righted. Didn't Zalesky get fired for doing better than them? Its at least comparable. 

They are literally the most recent team to win a title other than Penn State.

[ionel]

Just now, PortaJohn said:

fair enough but what about Mesenbrink?

Well sure ... that kid should get all the credit in the world ... fantastic wrestling and comeback. 

[TylerDurden]

1 hour ago, WrestlingRash said:

I will wait until I see how Iowa does at NCAAs before I am ready to say its time for the Brands Brothers to skedaddle. But, it sure is looking more and more likely that there will be pressure building on them. If they don't get top 3 at NCAAs, you'd have to think next year is their last shot to get the ship righted. Didn't Zalesky get fired for doing better than them? Its at least comparable. 

These takes are silly. 

And no, Zalesky has not "done better" than the Brands Bros. Remember, Zalesky inherited a program from Gable. Brands inherited one from Zalesky. 

Also, Penn State under Cael has existed all but a couple years that Brands has been the head coach. If you're upset that Cael has outperformed Iowa, fine, but the reality is that what Cael is doing has only been matched one time and I don't personally see another coach out there who can match Cael and Co. in recruiting/development. 

Brands may not be likeable to everyone, but if you fire him, you're an idiot. Just because he hasn't replicated Gable's success doesn't mean he's a failure. I'm expecting a much better Iowa team next season and I'm saying that expecting them to finish in the top four at this year's NCAA.

Edited March 12 by TylerDurden

[billyhoyle]

4 hours ago, VakAttack said:

They are literally the most recent team to win a title other than Penn State.

But is that because of good coaching by the Brands or is it Spencer Lee and transferring in talent? Do you really think Iowa is better off with Brands than if they could get Pop or Taylor/Burroughs (when their time comes after 2024). I think if Pop isn't available, then it makes sense to stick with Brands for the time being-but there's no doubt that the program is in decline.  

 

[VakAttack]

6 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

But is that because of good coaching by the Brands or is it Spencer Lee and transferring in talent? Do you really think Iowa is better off with Brands than if they could get Pop or Taylor/Burroughs (when their time comes after 2024). I think if Pop isn't available, then it makes sense to stick with Brands for the time being-but there's no doubt that the program is in decline.  

 

Getting good wrestlers is job 1 for Coaches these days. I don't think the program is on the decline, I think this is a natural down time in the cycle after a powerful time. Every team has them, even Penn State. In fact, Iowa has been great at avoiding them!

[wrestlingshoe]

Part of the issue is the changing psyche of the new generation wrestler. It's happening in high school rooms and high School classrooms and college rooms and college classrooms. If coaches don't change, if teachers don't change, the way they approached the new generation it will be much harder to get them to perform. I have been in the classroom for over 20 years and in the wrestling room for over 20 years and I wrestled myself for almost 20 years. Kids are different. Teachers, coaches, mentors need to change how they work with their students/athletes if they want to get the best out of them. That's why NIL is a thing and that's why many college football coaches have fled to the NFL. 

[headshuck]

One thing I’m noticing is the Iowa wrestlers are losing graciously these days.