jross Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 What's the end game for having citizens purchase insurance and will it work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parrish Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, jross said: What's the end game for having citizens purchase insurance and will it work? Like auto insurance. If you have risk factors, your premiums are higher. https://sanjosespotlight.com/san-jose-gun-owners-need-liability-insurance-in-2023-firearms/ It's a baby step. What I would hope for is that the vast bulk of law abiding firearm owners would have a long term, nearly negligible insurance cost, but people with criminal convictions, stolen weapons that were improperly secured, small children who got access to unsecured/no triggerlock/no action lock firearms, kids who take guns to schools, straw purchases, and other bad behavior would result in premiums that have some serious bite. Homeowners should be keeping a tight rein on access to firearms. I treat my firearms as dangerous tools (like a unshielded portable bandsaw) and have trained my kids the same way when I taught them to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parrish Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 4 hours ago, jross said: Unpopular take. The MoD should have been dispatched swiftly after conviction several years ago. Interesting side note from electoral-vote.com: Quote However, it is worth noting that Bout had already served 11 years of a 25-year sentence, and that the judge in the case (Shira Scheindlin, now retired), felt and the time and continues to feel, that the sentence was too harsh. Her hands were tied by federal sentencing guidelines, and 25 years was the minimum that she could impose. So, Bout has paid a pretty serious price for his crimes, perhaps even the appropriate price. And while he could go back to dealing arms and/or spying, it's not going to be easy, given that everyone is now watching him closely, and that any networks and/or connections he had have been neglected for 11 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ban Basketball Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 32 minutes ago, jross said: Probably because I'm rural and a data guy but the gun topic is confusing. Guns are statistically a nonissue. 3M of 330M U.S. citizens (1%) die annually. The causes of death are not limited to: Heart disease - 700K Vehicles - 40K Homicide by firearm - 19K 0.5% of deaths are caused by homicide from a firearm. The average citizen has a 0.006% chance of dying from an idiot using a gun. Your chance of death from a public mass shooting is 0.0~%, while over 80M citizens own guns and over 400M guns exist in the U.S. Just the same way that international terrorism is an even bigger non-issue. The likelihood of any of us being killed by international terrorism is essentially zero. So, international terrorism is irrelevant and a non-issue that we should never be devoting any energies toward. Owner of over two decades of the most dangerous words on the internet! In fact, during the short life of this forum, me's culture has been cancelled three times on this very site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 9 minutes ago, Ban Basketball said: Just the same way that international terrorism is an even bigger non-issue. The likelihood of any of us being killed by international terrorism is essentially zero. So, international terrorism is irrelevant and a non-issue that we should never be devoting any energies toward. Ron Paul nailed the concept of blowback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said: ...too harsh When I kept ducks, the raccoons kept eating them. I started trapping and called animal control. It was illegal to relocate the raccoons to public land. It was illegal to relocate to private land without the owner's permission. I asked the gov/Animal Control for options, and they said, "you dispatch them." And so I did. My unpopular views on the instadeath penalty extend beyond this MoD when there is 100% certainty Violent rapists Large-scale illicit fentanyl distributers Violent hate crimes; the type where someone beats up an elderly person on the street because of Asian bigotry Criminals (normally gang members) involved in public / open-air shootings of other people like you see in the cities Premediated murder There's probably a tiny list of bad crimes in which humanity is better off without the criminal. Frequently there is not enough evidence to be 100% certain and jail time is tolerable. But when it is certain... be gone with the criminal. Edited December 9, 2022 by jross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 22 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said: What I would hope for is that the vast bulk of law abiding firearm owners would have a long term, nearly negligible insurance cost, but people with criminal convictions, stolen weapons that were improperly secured, small children who got access to unsecured/no triggerlock/no action lock firearms, kids who take guns to schools, straw purchases, and other bad behavior would result in premiums that have some serious bite. Will people with bad behaviors report their possession of guns and pay insurance for them? Sadly no. I can see the insurance influencing responsible parents to secure their firearms better or to get rid of them. This may prevent some school issues. Maybe there are fewer guns left in cars and therefore fewer stolen... I'd be willing to regulate that all guns must have registered fingerprint IDs to work. However, this could be easily bypassed by those committing crimes. Let's say we banned all gun sales. Okay, now we're going to 3D print them at home... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerniePragle Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 1 hour ago, jross said: Only when including suicides are gun deaths similar to vehicle death counts. Nobody talks about banning car sales. The salesman who sells a car later used to drive into a crowd is not a Merchant of Death. The legal gun dealer that sells guns for legal purposes is not a merchant of death, regardless of what someone does. The Russian Arms dealer that sells guns to people for the open purpose of killing people is a Merchant of Death. This is not comparable at all. Is it a 100% comparison? No. Is it a 0% comparison? Again, no. You can't honestly think the VP of sales at Remington, S&W, etc, etc give two shits whether the guns they manufactured and sold are used for target practice, hunting, suicide, or murder. They are merely numbers on the monthly sales figures. I find that abhorrent. I'm certainly not without my faults, but I couldn't sleep at night. Before you go to a VP of sales at GM is similar argument, you know and I know it is different. Very, very, very... few people commit suicide or murder with a car. I also grew up semi-rural (after age 10). When I was a young man, guns were predominately for hunting, and a little for protection INSIDE the home. Now the gun and ammo manufacturers have done a very good job of convincing people that if they leave their home unarmed, the bad guy is gonna get them for sure. Also they've done a great job of convincing people that it's cool to own semi-automatic weapons, even for target practice. For heavens sake, go bowling, shoot pool or darts. Again, sales figures. Again, abhorrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parrish Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 23 minutes ago, jross said: Will people with bad behaviors report their possession of guns and pay insurance for them? Sadly no. What happens if someone drives without auto insurance? What happens to a person who gives legal advice without being a lawyer? When they get stopped, penalties are worse. This isn't some new form of regulation? Quote I can see the insurance influencing responsible parents to secure their firearms better or to get rid of them. This may prevent some school issues. Maybe there are fewer guns left in cars and therefore fewer stolen... I agree. Quote I'd be willing to regulate that all guns must have registered fingerprint IDs to work. However, this could be easily bypassed by those committing crimes. Let's say we banned all gun sales. Okay, now we're going to 3D print them at home... I don't think this will work in the short term. The tech isn't widespread and stable yet. Battery issues... But some sort of 'node-locked license' where only the registered owner can use the firearm would be a welcome addition. 3D printing of firearms is already getting regulated. I think it will be get even more scrutiny in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parrish Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, BerniePragle said: Is it a 100% comparison? No. Is it a 0% comparison? Again, no. You can't honestly think the VP of sales at Remington, S&W, etc, etc give two shits whether the guns they manufactured and sold are used for target practice, hunting, suicide, or murder. They are merely numbers on the monthly sales figures. I find that abhorrent. I'm certainly not without my faults, but I couldn't sleep at night. Before you go to a VP of sales at GM is similar argument, you know and I know it is different. Very, very, very... few people commit suicide or murder with a car. I also grew up semi-rural (after age 10). When I was a young man, guns were predominately for hunting, and a little for protection INSIDE the home. Now the gun and ammo manufacturers have done a very good job of convincing people that if they leave their home unarmed, the bad guy is gonna get them for sure. Also they've done a great job of convincing people that it's cool to own semi-automatic weapons, even for target practice. For heavens sake, go bowling, shoot pool or darts. Again, sales figures. Again, abhorrent. I'm not a big fan of the Tacticool/LARPerator industries that glamorize the stupidity around 'stand your ground' bullshit. Hordes of BLM protestors coming to your house to kill you is vastly less likely than random gun death, but whole industries support themselves through fear and hate mongering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 I'm all for stronger gun regulation if it's effective. Gun regulation I've seen seems to penalize good people and has little effect on bad people. Driving in a car is visible, and anyone can get pulled over. During that time, checking for insurance is opportunistic. What opportunity exists to check bad people if they have gun insurance? These are not the scout's honor type that are going to volunteer possession. How does anyone know a 3d gun was printed, to begin with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parrish Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 Just now, jross said: I'm all for stronger gun regulation if it's effective. Gun regulation I've seen seems to penalize good people and has little effect on bad people. Yeah and a lot of the gun control laws are written by people who don't shoot. Is an AR15 more or less dangerous than a Mini14? That kind of thing. Quote Driving in a car is visible, and anyone can get pulled over. During that time, checking for insurance is opportunistic. What opportunity exists to check bad people if they have gun insurance? These are not the scout's honor type that are going to volunteer possession. Going to the range. Gun found in a car. Purchasing a firearm at a gun store. Arrested carrying a firearm. Nothing is perfect and police don't pull over drivers simply to check their insurance, but more chances to take firearms from people who shouldn't have them is a good thing. Quote How does anyone know a 3d gun was printed, to begin with? One solution is that if you get caught with a firearm without a serial number, manufacturer's mark, made from 3D printed material, you get 20 years. ATF can manage another category along with fully automatic weapons, suppressors, etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 My experience with guns... Rural: I have owned several rifles and shotguns starting early childhood. I sometimes hunt and practice shooting. Roadtrip: my dad bought and brought a handgun while going on a cross-country multi-week family road trip in an RV for personal safety Rural: Ashamedly, I threatened to fight a guy at a party, and he aimed a handgun at me. I backed down. (This was two months after an 88yr driver caused a vehicle accident that killed my 43 yr old father. I was 20 years old.) City: my primary gas station by work was riddled with bullet holes after being robbed. Rural: raccoons kept eating my ducks. I captured them and called animal control. It was illegal to relocate the raccoon on public and private land without permission. Animal control told me to dispatch them. The media hysteria almost influenced me to buy a concealed carry, and then I looked into the stats and found I had a ~0% chance of gun violence. There are three times in the city where a crime occurred that I thankfully missed. Had I been present, I wished I had concealed carry. Gas station robbery. Someone drilled holes in my gas tank. Someone broke out my truck windows. I intend to conceal carry in the city after my children graduate high school. Its just not worth keeping in the house with my kids at this age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said: One solution is that if you get caught with a firearm without a serial number, manufacturer's mark, made from 3D printed material, you get 20 years. I'm mostly concerned about felony gun crimes. Do they go to the gun range, etc.? Where do the gang members get found in non-threatening situations? I am very upset with suicide. Guns make it easy. I don't find suicide to be a compelling enough reason to ban guns and regulating guns will not reduce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailbender Posted December 9, 2022 Author Share Posted December 9, 2022 2 hours ago, Mike Parrish said: Babylon Bee? Seriously? Their tagline Life is better with a sense of humor. You should try it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parrish Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, Nailbender said: Life is better with a sense of humor. You should try it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law Poe's Law, the struggle is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerniePragle Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 1 hour ago, jross said: My experience with guns... Rural: I have owned several rifles and shotguns starting early childhood. I sometimes hunt and practice shooting. Roadtrip: my dad bought and brought a handgun while going on a cross-country multi-week family road trip in an RV for personal safety Rural: Ashamedly, I threatened to fight a guy at a party, and he aimed a handgun at me. I backed down. (This was two months after an 88yr driver caused a vehicle accident that killed my 43 yr old father. I was 20 years old.) City: my primary gas station by work was riddled with bullet holes after being robbed. Rural: raccoons kept eating my ducks. I captured them and called animal control. It was illegal to relocate the raccoon on public and private land without permission. Animal control told me to dispatch them. The media hysteria almost influenced me to buy a concealed carry, and then I looked into the stats and found I had a ~0% chance of gun violence. There are three times in the city where a crime occurred that I thankfully missed. Had I been present, I wished I had concealed carry. Gas station robbery. Someone drilled holes in my gas tank. Someone broke out my truck windows. I intend to conceal carry in the city after my children graduate high school. Its just not worth keeping in the house with my kids at this age. You're a very thoughtful, logical person. I wish there were more people like you on both sides of this issue (these issues). I'm guessing it's been quite a while since your dad's accident, but you have my condolences. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailbender Posted December 9, 2022 Author Share Posted December 9, 2022 I don't even know where to start, you chatty Cathy's are all over the place today. There is no link between an international arms dealer (maybe the biggest of all time) being freed by Biden and US gun crime. That is purely a distraction by those who had little to offer in regards to Biden being made a fool of on the national stage once again but I'll play along. It is the internet after all. I am glad to hear at least some support for firearms here. Although a lot of it seems based on policing the law abiding, and "solutions" that pile on to an already countless list of gun laws that don't solve much if anything. The laws we have are ridiculous in number, scope and also poorly enforced. Faith that the next set will solve anything is a fools errand. "Common sense gun control" is an illusion. The goal is the elimination of private ownership of firearms without express permission and then only a select few guns approved by the state. Politicians who don't know anything about guns and have armed security are trying to buy votes with an illusion of safety. Anyone who wants more regulation is naive. When it really comes down to it, who is responsible for your safety? I hope this is readable because it pretty much sums up what 2nd amendment supporters are up against since 1934. Now, I'm not one to throw over the table and scream. Most gun owners aren't or with the amount of guns in this country there would be a lot more gun violence than there is. Those who are serious about reducing violence do it everyday with their behavior, how they raise their kids and how they live their lives. It isn't legislated. As with most things, more laws are only the answer if you're a fool or a politician. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ban Basketball Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) How do we know that firearms bans wouldn't work? We've only significantly done it once in my lifetime, and it did lower death rates by firearms. However, it's hard to not notice that countries that ban firearms have virtually zero rates of death by firearms. Meanwhile, we have either the highest (or near) rate of gun ownership in the world and one of the highest rates of death by firearms in the world. Yes, correlation is not causation, but in my bidness, that's one tremendous correlation on both ends. Edited December 9, 2022 by Ban Basketball Owner of over two decades of the most dangerous words on the internet! In fact, during the short life of this forum, me's culture has been cancelled three times on this very site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailbender Posted December 9, 2022 Author Share Posted December 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ban Basketball said: How do we know that firearms bans would work? We've only significantly done it once in my lifetime, and it did lower death rates by firearms. However, it's hard to not notice that countries that ban firearms have virtually zero rates of death by firearms. Meanwhile, we have either the highest (or near) rate of gun ownership in the world and one of the highest rates of death by firearms in the world. Yes, correlation is not causation, but in my bidness, that's one tremendous correlation on both ends. You should look at the numbers more closely. @jrosstried to help you with that. I'm not going to get into a statistical battle with you. Again, I'm not sure why your style of debate is to offer an opinion but at the same time acknowledge it isn't based on much. (Your last paragraph) I don't need to debate you, you do a pretty good job yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ban Basketball Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Nailbender said: You should look at the numbers more closely. @jrosstried to help you with that. I'm not going to get into a statistical battle with you. Again, I'm not sure why your style of debate is to offer an opinion but at the same time acknowledge it isn't based on much. (Your last paragraph) I don't need to debate you, you do a pretty good job yourself. Strange you say that, I've been presenting those very numbers for 28 years, with full citations. Haven't ran into too much dispute with it yet. Use good sources, my job is made easier. We own A LOT of guns, and we have A LOT of deaths by firearms. Don't like it anymore than you do. Edited December 9, 2022 by Ban Basketball Owner of over two decades of the most dangerous words on the internet! In fact, during the short life of this forum, me's culture has been cancelled three times on this very site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nailbender Posted December 9, 2022 Author Share Posted December 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, Ban Basketball said: Strange you say that, I've been presenting those very numbers for 28 years, with full citations. Haven't ran into too much dispute with it yet. Use good sources, my job is made easier. I think I can tell that my view of firearm ownership varies greatly from yours. My point of view has far more to do with not wanting to be punished for others poor choices. Which is why I don't want to get into a statistical debate. However to be a good abassador of my point of view and to assume you're arguing in good faith. I'll share this, which will begin to paint a picture of what I mean. https://youtu.be/u8c2wKISv0o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ban Basketball Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 1 minute ago, Nailbender said: I think I can tell that my view of firearm ownership varies greatly from yours. My point of view has far more to do with not wanting to be punished for others poor choices. Which is why I don't want to get into a statistical debate. However to be a good abassador of my point of view and to assume you're arguing in good faith. I'll share this, which will begin to paint a picture of what I mean. https://youtu.be/u8c2wKISv0o I'll watch the video, but I've been a gun owner my whole life, so I'm not anti-gun. I grew up a working class kid in Minnesota, which meant we grew up around and using guns. I've owned shotguns and rifles for hunting my entire life, but don't own handguns nor "military weapons." I've gone through Minnesota's gun safety programs, so I take guns and gun safety seriously. Too many didn't have the training that I did, don't even own guns themselves, and espouse no restrictions on firearms. That troubles me. With all of that said, I'm good with banning certain firearms. I've gotten by perfectly fine without them and they'd be a good riddance to our society. I appreciate your decency in talking about this. 1 Owner of over two decades of the most dangerous words on the internet! In fact, during the short life of this forum, me's culture has been cancelled three times on this very site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Parrish Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 Heads up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le duke Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 Heads up Looks like it’s working. Quite unfortunate. Kind of amazing how quickly people adopt pro-Russian narratives. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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