Red Blades Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 8 hours ago, wrestle87 said: Ivy's do a better job than most of hiding what they do, but it's still pretty cut and dry that it's an exchange of services. As I said above - if you make this argument for athletes, you can make the same argument for any student who receives financial aid. It will be interesting to see what the courts do with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHROMEBIRD Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 9 hours ago, Red Blades said: As I said above - if you make this argument for athletes, you can make the same argument for any student who receives financial aid. It will be interesting to see what the courts do with this. WDYM? Students receive financial aid that is either a grant or a loan to be repaid in the future. Students don't provide a service to their university the same way athletes do when they go out and actually train and compete for the school. Are you talking about students on FWS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 Careful what you wish for boys n girls. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 hour ago, CHROMEBIRD said: WDYM? Students receive financial aid that is either a grant or a loan to be repaid in the future. Students don't provide a service to their university the same way athletes do when they go out and actually train and compete for the school. Are you talking about students on FWS? What! What service do athletes provide, is anyone forcing them to participate? Do you have any idea how much training is required to compete on the dairy cow judging team? Would you know a good teet if you saw one? Your position is udderly ridiculous! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Blades Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 27 minutes ago, ionel said: What! What service do athletes provide, is anyone forcing them to participate? Do you have any idea how much training is required to compete on the dairy cow judging team? Would you know a good teet if you saw one? Your position is udderly ridiculous! And the trombone player in the marching band said, "Blowhard!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 hour ago, CHROMEBIRD said: WDYM? Students receive financial aid that is either a grant or a loan to be repaid in the future. Students don't provide a service to their university the same way athletes do when they go out and actually train and compete for the school. Are you talking about students on FWS? What? Inventing, refining, improving things isn’t providing a service to the university? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestle87 Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 53 minutes ago, JimmyBT said: What? Inventing, refining, improving things isn’t providing a service to the university? Uhhh...if this was actually what happened with the majority of students on the majority of universities, financial viability and cost-benefit analysis of post-secondary education would not be the hotly debated topic that it is. Not saying it doesn't happen...but the idea that the average student is refining anything other than their ability to empty a can into their face at lightning speed is a bit misguided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 (edited) Just now, wrestle87 said: Uhhh...if this was actually what happened with the majority of students on the majority of universities, financial viability and cost-benefit analysis of post-secondary education would not be the hotly debated topic that it is. Not saying it doesn't happen...but the idea that the average student is refining anything other than their ability to empty a can into their face at lightning speed is a bit misguided. It happens. A lot. The average student isn’t playing a college sport either Edited March 7 by JimmyBT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 5 minutes ago, wrestle87 said: Uhhh...if this was actually what happened with the majority of students on the majority of universities, financial viability and cost-benefit analysis of post-secondary education would not be the hotly debated topic that it is. Not saying it doesn't happen...but the idea that the average student is refining anything other than their ability to empty a can into their face at lightning speed is a bit misguided. Ok what if a student represents their university, college & department at national meetings? What if said student(s) win national competition or elected as national society president or other office/position to serve the society and represent said nation & university. What about participation at international events. Or what if its just representing said university at local community service events. There are all kinds of things the "average" student does while at the university. Just like sports though they don't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHROMEBIRD Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 18 minutes ago, JimmyBT said: It happens. A lot. The average student isn’t playing a college sport either lolwut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyBT Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 minute ago, CHROMEBIRD said: lolwut Oi812 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestle87 Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 3 minutes ago, ionel said: Ok what if a student represents their university, college & department at national meetings? What if said student(s) win national competition or elected as national society president or other office/position to serve the society and represent said nation & university. What about participation at international events. Or what if its just representing said university at local community service events. There are all kinds of things the "average" student does while at the university. Just like sports though they don't have to. Ok, that previous comment took me on a bit of a tangent. It all comes down to where and how the "product" that colleges provide of an education and the college experience ends, and where marketing, revenue generating, and alumni relations efforts begin. There are certainly a minority of non-athletes on campuses who do things for the college, but you can't logically say that all students attending a college, that they are paying for, which is what most students are doing, qualifies as being under the employ of the college. That is analogous to saying that a paying customer at a restaurant is employed by that restaurant. If you want to look at the students attending because of grants, heck yeah you can make the argument they are employees in some way, bc you bet your bottom dollar they are winding up in college marketing material in one way or another. College athletics play a major role in building and maintaining campus life, alumni interest and engagement, directly and indirectly supporting alumni donation drives, as well as simply getting the name and the school colors out there on regional and national stage in front of future prospective students and families. Though the thing they engage in is a highly specific activity, athletes are, even at a d3 level, no different from a student working in the admissions office from a long-term marketing perspective. And that's for schools that don't even have considerable ticket revenue, tv contract, and apparel sponsorship deals. It will sure be interesting. I don't have any munchkins of my own yet, but I know for a fact that the college sports environment I partook of will likely be looooong gone by the time I have kids looking at schools...if they even want to do that. I was reading how much kids can make as a merchant sailor, maybe I should've done that instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestle87 Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 (edited) 19 minutes ago, ionel said: Ok what if a student represents their university, college & department at national meetings? What if said student(s) win national competition or elected as national society president or other office/position to serve the society and represent said nation & university. What about participation at international events. Or what if its just representing said university at local community service events. Yup, you are not wrong. The potential knock-on effects of this are gigantic. Now, I'm not familiar with what sort of bargaining power a debate team or model-UN team could have at the college level at most schools, but for at least a few it will matter. Buuut...this is what happens when the winds of labor rights/legislation/change start smelling like they might dismantle one of the longest held strangle holds our economy and society has produced in almost a century. Previously service-oriented entities became veeeery profit oriented, tax status aside, and...eventually the universe pushes back. Schools not having a basketball or a football team is positively blasphemous though. This will be wrestling's primary area of struggle. How do you remain relevant enough that the school keeps your program despite impending headwinds. Edited March 7 by wrestle87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 16 minutes ago, wrestle87 said: College athletics play a major role in building and maintaining campus life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 10 minutes ago, wrestle87 said: Yup, you are not wrong. The potential knock-on effects of this are gigantic. Now, I'm not familiar with what sort of bargaining power a debate team or model-UN team could have at the college level at most schools, but for at least a few it will matter. Buuut...this is what happens when the winds of labor rights/legislation/change start smelling like they might dismantle one of the longest held strangle holds our economy and society has produced in almost a century. Previously service-oriented entities became veeeery profit oriented, tax status aside, and...eventually the universe pushes back. Schools not having a basketball or a football team is positively blasphemous though. This will be wrestling's primary area of struggle. How do you remain relevant enough that the school keeps your program despite impending headwinds. I don't think undergrads should or will ever unionize but grad students have. Faculty generally haven't at the top universities im familiar with but have a many smaller. I see nothing wrong with the Euro approach and club sport. NIL has got this way out of hand and many of us predicted such. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestle87 Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 3 minutes ago, ionel said: Lol...laugh it up man...I'm assuming that you didn't go to school where most of the country's colleges are located...which is in the middle of nowhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestle87 Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 minute ago, ionel said: I don't think undergrads should or will ever unionize but grad students have. Faculty generally haven't at the top universities im familiar with but have a many smaller. I see nothing wrong with the Euro approach and club sport. NIL has got this way out of hand and many of us predicted such. Do you think faculty will as tenure comes under further pressure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 Just now, wrestle87 said: Do you think faculty will as tenure comes under further pressure? They have at some. IMO tenure makes sense for research faculty, not so much for teaching faculty and I don't see it going away on the research side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanOfPurdueWrestling Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 31 minutes ago, ionel said: I have to agree. Basketball and football games get the entire schools attention 1 day a week (football) or a few times a month (big basketball game). The students absolutely care about athletics even if it’s just an excuse to get drunk and hangout, it’s a chance to bond and make friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Blades Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 2 minutes ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said: I have to agree. Basketball and football games get the entire schools attention 1 day a week (football) or a few times a month (big basketball game). The students absolutely care about athletics even if it’s just an excuse to get drunk and hangout, it’s a chance to bond and make friends. Clearly, you haven't been to many Ivy League football games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 (edited) 10 minutes ago, FanOfPurdueWrestling said: building ... campus life get drunk and hangout ok ... I didn't think about it that way ... although I thought that was the job of Harry's Chocolate Shop not the athletes ... Edited March 7 by ionel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 (edited) 2 hours ago, wrestle87 said: Now, I'm not familiar with what sort of bargaining power a debate team or model-UN team could have at the college level at most schools, but for at least a few it will matter. I reckon if the debate team unionized and threatened to stop debating until they reached a CBA with the school that would result in very little negotiating leverage. Probably less than the Dartmouth BB union. On the other hand if the football team at school in an FBS power 5 conference were to unionize and threaten to not play until a CBA is reached they would have significant leverage. The school would potentially be missing out on tens to hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue if those games are not played. The bargaining power would be directly proportional to the revenue the school derives from the activity. Trying to compare a debate team or whatever to Dartmouth basketball might kind of work, but it completely falls flat against the economics of FBS football and big time college basketball. Where are these other non-athletic college activities that generate tens of millions of dollars in revenue? Edited March 7 by fishbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassling Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 (edited) The NCAA allowed this to surface. It must be counting on a "taste" of the cash. First it was the "one and done" allowance of players to be awarded a scholarship, play one season and then off to the NBA. Then it was the portal. Then came NIL, and now this. After this, all NCAA sports will follow - including wrestling. So long college sports, It was fun while it lasted. Edited March 7 by Rassling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 hour ago, Rassling said: The NCAA allowed this to surface. It must be counting on a "taste" of the cash. First it was the "one and done" allowance of players to be awarded a scholarship, play one season and then off to the NBA. Then it was the portal. Then came NIL, and now this. After this, all NCAA sports will follow - including wrestling. So long college sports, It was fun while it lasted. Maybe so long to big time college sports as we know it. The vast amount of colleges and athletes really are student-athletes and there is not any money to squabble over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 hour ago, Rassling said: The NCAA allowed this to surface. It must be counting on a "taste" of the cash. First it was the "one and done" allowance of players to be awarded a scholarship, play one season and then off to the NBA. Then it was the portal. Then came NIL, and now this. After this, all NCAA sports will follow - including wrestling. So long college sports, It was fun while it lasted. Your timeline is not only in accurate it also misses the most important thing - the money. The NCAA did not allow this to happen they fought it for years spending millions on legal costs. At some point it became inevitable and the biggest thing NCAA and it's member schools did to bring it about was to start selling tickets and broadcast rights for millions/billions of dollars. A year or so ago MLS signed an exclusive broadcast rights deal with AppleTV. That deal pays $2.5 million over 12 years. I am sure MLS owners would love to be able to compensate the players only with room and board, some books, and classes unrelated to the players profession in exchange for them playing said games. That's not how it works though. The SEC recently sold their TV rights to ESPN in a 10 year deal valued at $3 billion. The idea they could do that and not share the money in any meaningful way with the people actually playing the games is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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