dragit Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 15 minutes ago, BIGTENFANBOY said: You dont find it odd how Metcalf speaks about Iowa? What about St John? Obviously the Ramos incedent. Gilman thing. These guys were once the face of the Iowa team. You may be able to explain and justify the reasoning, BUT it doesnt change the fact there is some friction. Wait. Morningstar and Telford weren't once the face of the Iowa team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_KC_Godfather Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDxS-anGO9w Straight to the specific convo... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_KC_Godfather Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 15 hours ago, dragit said: We probably have different senses of humor. I said that Cael is "perhaps one of the two best ever." I think most would agree Gable is better than Cael. 21/21 Big Tens. 15 national championships, 9 in a row. So is it laughable to suggest Ed Gallagher might be ahead of Cael too? According to his Hall of Fame bio, he had 19 undefeated teams in 23 seasons; in 13 national tournaments won 10 and tied for first once; and is credited with being the innovator of modern folkstyle wrestling from applying his "engineering knowledge of leverage and stress to the development of more than 400 wrestling holds." I can't see any view of the facts under which a reasonable person would find that laughable. While it's a tougher argument, I also personally don't think it's laughable for someone to put Harold Nichols third after Gable and Gallagher. He won 6 NCAAs and finished in the top 4 27 straight years. And if I'm counting correctly, Cael has had two of his college wrestlers win Olympic medals in the four Olympics contested when he has been a college head coach. Nichols had three wrestlers win a medal in a single Olympics, at a time when winning medals was much harder for U.S. wrestlers due to the disparity between senior level funding between the Soviets and Americans. Great thoughts. This is the same interesting conversation where I never know which way to go on the Mahomes vs. Brady GOAT debate. When do you actually call someone the GOAT? Is Brady the GOAT until Mahomes retires? Does Mahomes have to play until he's 45 so their stats are apples to apples comparable? Can Mahomes be considered the GOAT now because he's achieved more than Brady did in his first x number of seasons? Depending on which category you're talking about, it can be apples to oranges. That's where it's tough to consider on these coaches too. Can Cael not be considered the GOAT until he has as many team natty's or individual natty's as the other guys? Will Cael finish in the top 3 in 25 straight years, and that therefore puts him higher than Nichols because he only finished top 4 in 27 years? Always an interesting discussion and I don't ever know how to lock down one way or the other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragit Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 18 minutes ago, The_KC_Godfather said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDxS-anGO9w Straight to the specific convo... Thanks for teeing that up for us. Besides the content, something noticeable to me that's also relevant to the topic is that Metcalf SOUNDS much different now than he used to when he was in "the bubble." He used to sound just like Tom Brands in his cadence and manner of speaking, now he sounds much different -- more like, I guess, Brent Metcalf. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_KC_Godfather Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 10 hours ago, wrestle87 said: This is the old, now regularly rehashed story coming out of Iowa. Yes TnT have great success, but they are dyed in the wool old guard coaches who are still reading from the same playbook gable handed them. They are the purest athlete distillate of the gable era, but without the athlete knowhow that gable has, and Cael clearly has too, just in a different way. If anyone on here has read Gable’s old coaching books, he talked tirelessly about the importance of understanding athletes as individuals, and maintaining the right headspace for the athlete. Now, he clearly only got a specific cross-section of the population coming to him, those who were willing to put up with him or who thought like him, bc wrestling is the outlet for his own internal rage. He just drove guys so hard and so emblematically that the style embossed itself on the sport for 40 years. Then Ben Askren came along, as the first glimmer of a different way, and Cael has meaningfully refined his approach to the mental side of things. It is so clear that PSU has figured out the mental side of approaching competition as fierce as wrestling, that everyone who touches the program improves. Listen to any of the (rare) interviews PSU guys give about mindset and the focus from Cael, they all deemphasize the heightened negative emotions associated with competition. The next major difference, I believe to be the largest, and also directly related to the mental side of things, is PSU attracts guys and they don’t leave. TnT meanwhile have burnt bridges right and left with their best athletes, tirelessly chasing the next thing instead of developing a good base of young graduates to support the ranks. They have a very bad (high) rate of eventually betraying their best guys or running them out of the program. Go back and look at their guys who have won ncaa titles during their tenure, and count how many are still involved in the Hawkeye program or have a good thing to say about those guys. The number is low. For anecdotal evidence, let’s individually remember the stories of metcalf, ramos, gilman, and spencer lee to name a few. I don’t know St John’s story, but they missed on him too. Ultimately, certain personalities and coaching strategies are short term effective, long term caustic. Others actually succeed in building positively in the long term. The old school coaches are on the way out, the new school are dominating the sport (askren and cael). They have a more comprehensive system which yields better outcomes, and it is really coming into sharp form with this cohort of athletes. We all know who the best coach ever is, he just hasn't been at it long enough to have accumulated the titles. This. Hard nosed grinding isn't enough anymore with the evolvement of the sport. Do I think that TnT are absolutely capable of evolving with it? Yes. Do I think that they're too stubborn and think the Gable way of hard nosed grinding is still enough? Yes. This is EXACTLY the same thing with John Smith, imo. Bring in Coleman to get the program into the 21st century and adapt/evolve, and things take a turn for the better very quickly. Also brings a different mentality, not of a drill sergeant. As much as TnT and John like to think these athletes are "kids", they aren't...they're adults, and a lot of adults don't want to be screamed at or beat up constantly. Agree with whoever said they need to bring in some new blood (eg. Yianni). You can still keep Iowa Style, but again, it needs to evolve. NIL money can work wonders to bring in some top tier talent. As it relates to my other thread about "is it a mistake to transfer to Iowa", I think the convo there applies here as well. The grind that TnT and the old school/existing Iowa Style puts on guys is a lot. Transfers coming in from other conferences aren't used to the Iowa Style grind and a B1G schedule, and I'm sure it wears their bodies out. Cael has figured out a way to have his wrestlers in top physical condition and always performing at a high level without them thinking they're in the military. Sure, there are injuries, but nothing (especially long term a la Spencer) that isn't part of college wrestling. Iowa is still a premier program and anybody would be lucky to go there, but there is always room for improvement, especially when you're expecting to be the best every year. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHROMEBIRD Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, BIGTENFANBOY said: You may be able to explain and justify the reasoning, BUT it doesnt change the fact there is some friction. Imo, the whole "get out of the Iowa bubble" thing is about folks escaping the grinding beatdown "everyone's got it in for us" culture. It even permeates a good portion of the Iowa fanbase... PSU gets all the breaks, Carl cheats, our guys are afraid, the refs hate us, everyone we wrestle is stalling. It gets tiresome. You can't fuel a program on hatred and blame. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, The_KC_Godfather said: This. Hard nosed grinding isn't enough anymore with the evolvement of the sport. Do I think that TnT are absolutely capable of evolving with it? Yes. Do I think that they're too stubborn and think the Gable way of hard nosed grinding is still enough? Yes. This is EXACTLY the same thing with John Smith, imo. Bring in Coleman to get the program into the 21st century and adapt/evolve, and things take a turn for the better very quickly. Also brings a different mentality, not of a drill sergeant. As much as TnT and John like to think these athletes are "kids", they aren't...they're adults, and a lot of adults don't want to be screamed at or beat up constantly. Agree with whoever said they need to bring in some new blood (eg. Yianni). You can still keep Iowa Style, but again, it needs to evolve. NIL money can work wonders to bring in some top tier talent. As it relates to my other thread about "is it a mistake to transfer to Iowa", I think the convo there applies here as well. The grind that TnT and the old school/existing Iowa Style puts on guys is a lot. Transfers coming in from other conferences aren't used to the Iowa Style grind and a B1G schedule, and I'm sure it wears their bodies out. Cael has figured out a way to have his wrestlers in top physical condition and always performing at a high level without them thinking they're in the military. Sure, there are injuries, but nothing (especially long term a la Spencer) that isn't part of college wrestling. Iowa is still a premier program and anybody would be lucky to go there, but there is always room for improvement, especially when you're expecting to be the best every year. Do we know if OSU is even doing anything differently? To me, their “success” this year just seems to be due to a combination of the portal + a nice crop of freshmen/redshirt freshmen. I put success in quotes because they’re still just competing with Iowa and several other teams for second place. Seems odd that OSU and Iowa having comparable outlooks this season means that OSU has “turned things for the better very quickly,” but Iowa needs a change…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHROMEBIRD Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Hard to know exactly what Coleman has been up to, but there's a "day in the life" video of him running the Okie State practices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGTENFANBOY Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 4 hours ago, dragit said: Wait. Morningstar and Telford weren't once the face of the Iowa team? You dont need 100% of graduates for my statement to be true. The fact that a number of their former top guys/leaders feel this way is a problem. Denying this is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragit Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 19 minutes ago, BIGTENFANBOY said: You dont need 100% of graduates for my statement to be true. The fact that a number of their former top guys/leaders feel this way is a problem. Denying this is a problem. Sorry I was trying to agree with you, I should have added a "snark" disclaimer, my bad. Your point was right on -- big name, charismatic guys like Metcalf and Ramos are coaching elsewhere and they've got two pretty dull guys who were never a threat to win titles as their middle and upper weight sized coaches, compared to Cael, Cunningham, and Varner. Kind of a big delta there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 hours ago, BIGTENFANBOY said: You dont need 100% of graduates for my statement to be true. The fact that a number of their former top guys/leaders feel this way is a problem. Denying this is a problem. How many is “a number”? Feel what way? I don’t think Metcalf has any hard feelings towards Iowa, that interview was harmless. The main guys that have hard feelings towards Iowa (Gilman and Ramos, but feel free to provide some more examples if you have any), felt that way because they felt they were being replaced at HWC, after having already competed post-collegiately for several years with HWC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadkilla Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 6 hours ago, dragit said: Thanks for teeing that up for us. Besides the content, something noticeable to me that's also relevant to the topic is that Metcalf SOUNDS much different now than he used to when he was in "the bubble." He used to sound just like Tom Brands in his cadence and manner of speaking, now he sounds much different -- more like, I guess, Brent Metcalf. That was maddening.. About 80% of the team adopted the cadence, Its like they joined a cult. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmoney Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 19 minutes ago, 1032004 said: How many is “a number”? Feel what way? I don’t think Metcalf has any hard feelings towards Iowa, that interview was harmless. The main guys that have hard feelings towards Iowa (Gilman and Ramos, but feel free to provide some more examples if you have any), felt that way because they felt they were being replaced at HWC, after having already competed post-collegiately for several years with HWC. I agree that Metcalf doesn't have hard feelings towards Iowa. I also have watched a Gilman video suggesting he doesn't have hard feelings towards Iowa. I could see Gilman getting hot headed for awhile about the competitive situation arising there, but his decision made a lot of sense. I don't know him personally so I couldn't say if he actually holds a grudge. Penn State offered superior training opportunities in my opinion free from Spencer Lee's eyes and ears. If Metcalf hated Iowa, he doubtfully would coach at Iowa State and have to hold that annual dual where Iowa State gets smoked. I think Metcalf meant that "ra-ra Iowa rules" is the Iowa culture and "us against them" is sacrosanct there. I also think he probably was implying that he needed some mental growth and stuff that maybe he wasn't getting there or needed to grow something he was missing. Iowa having Terry Brands as a coach is going to eliminate a lot of growth opportunities for top Iowa grads. I don't think Iowa needs both Brands brothers. They do need some variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragit Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 36 minutes ago, Threadkilla said: That was maddening.. About 80% of the team adopted the cadence, Its like they joined a cult. Yep. There was a previous very maddening example pre-Brands -- in the ESPN series about Iowa, it was during the Zalesky years, and in the clips when he addressed the team, he seemed to be imitating Gable, who is particularly ill suited to being imitated because (1) he is a singular legend and it's stupid to try to match the unmatchable, and (2) Gable's speaking style was so unusual (non-linear, sentences without regular beginnings and ends, unorthodox pauses, etc.) that it could only possibly work for him. It was brutal to watch - cringe inducing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGTENFANBOY Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, 1032004 said: How many is “a number”? Feel what way? I don’t think Metcalf has any hard feelings towards Iowa, that interview was harmless. The main guys that have hard feelings towards Iowa (Gilman and Ramos, but feel free to provide some more examples if you have any), felt that way because they felt they were being replaced at HWC, after having already competed post-collegiately for several years with HWC. Imo Metcalfs while not overtly negative, doesnt exactly come accross and complimentary when talking about culture. Do you think Pearsall, Molinaro, Ruth, Hall, Vincenzo, or Berge would ever feel this current roster at PSU would look at them and think of them as traitors or a douche? Yet that is the sentiment at Iowa. Iowa craps on Schwab and Dresser all the time. That culture doesnt come out of nowhere. Gilman and Ramos were both "franchise" wrestlers for the hawkeyes. Regardless of the reason however valid/invalidmthey maybe its still troubling to me that a past team's biggest star later looks back at the program they came from with negative feelings. I'm kind of perplexed at how you dont see that as an issue that atleast somewhat paints the program in a negative light. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragit Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 6 minutes ago, BIGTENFANBOY said: Imo Metcalfs while not overtly negative, doesnt exactly come accross and complimentary when talking about culture. Do you think Pearsall, Molinaro, Ruth, Hall, Vincenzo, or Berge would ever feel this current roster at PSU would look at them and think of them as traitors or a douche? Yet that is the sentiment at Iowa. Iowa craps on Schwab and Dresser all the time. That culture doesnt come out of nowhere. Gilman and Ramos were both "franchise" wrestlers for the hawkeyes. Regardless of the reason however valid/invalidmthey maybe its still troubling to me that a past team's biggest star later looks back at the program they came from with negative feelings. I'm kind of perplexed at how you dont see that as an issue that atleast somewhat paints the program in a negative light. This is clearly correct. Just because Metcalf didn't use inflammatory language doesn't mean the thrust of his statements weren't negative. In fact it's really the opposite -- his whole point was that Gilman, while in the Iowa bubble, was confrontational and inflammatory, completely unnecessarily so in a completely benign social situation, and then years later acknowledged that was silly. Metcalf presented this in a calm manner in order to illustrate the extreme culture that he was trying to describe to the viewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 7 minutes ago, BIGTENFANBOY said: Imo Metcalfs while not overtly negative, doesnt exactly come accross and complimentary when talking about culture. Do you think Pearsall, Molinaro, Ruth, Hall, Vincenzo, or Berge would ever feel this current roster at PSU would look at them and think of them as traitors or a douche? Yet that is the sentiment at Iowa. Iowa craps on Schwab and Dresser all the time. That culture doesnt come out of nowhere. Gilman and Ramos were both "franchise" wrestlers for the hawkeyes. Regardless of the reason however valid/invalidmthey maybe its still troubling to me that a past team's biggest star later looks back at the program they came from with negative feelings. I'm kind of perplexed at how you dont see that as an issue that atleast somewhat paints the program in a negative light. I doubt anyone besides Gilman considered Metcalf a traitor. It’s not like he ditched Iowa for ISU, he was coaching USA freestyle and at a high school before going to ISU. I think it’s just Gilman that’s a douche. Present tense, as evidenced by his recent tweet about Yianni. Gilman kinda had to say that to Metcalf after he left himself to try to not look like as much of a hypocrite. How does Bubba Jenkins feel about Penn State? All teams are going to have some people that didn’t like it there. And it’s interesting that the two best examples for Iowa didn’t even “leave” while they were in college but rather several years after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 3 minutes ago, 1032004 said: I doubt anyone besides Gilman considered Metcalf a traitor. It’s not like he ditched Iowa for ISU, he was coaching USA freestyle and at a high school before going to ISU. I think it’s just Gilman that’s a douche. Present tense, as evidenced by his recent tweet about Yianni. Gilman kinda had to say that to Metcalf after he left himself to try to not look like as much of a hypocrite. How does Bubba Jenkins feel about Penn State? All teams are going to have some people that didn’t like it there. And it’s interesting that the two best examples for Iowa didn’t even “leave” while they were in college but rather several years after. Bubba had good things to say when he reunited with PSU and wrestled at one of their Rokfin events during the pandemic. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alces Alces Gigas Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 I get tired of folks complaining that PSU has all the money in the world!! 20 years ago they didn't and they have since raised the money. Hawkeyes, Cowboys, and everybody else had the opportunity to raise big bucks and have a great RTC but chose to spend their energy elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Just now, Alces Alces Gigas said: I get tired of folks complaining that PSU has all the money in the world!! 20 years ago they didn't and they have since raised the money. Hawkeyes, Cowboys, and everybody else had the opportunity to raise big bucks and have a great RTC but chose to spend their energy elsewhere. Besides Bob Nicolls said the playing field was levelled. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 3 minutes ago, Alces Alces Gigas said: I get tired of folks complaining that PSU has all the money in the world!! 20 years ago they didn't and they have since raised the money. Hawkeyes, Cowboys, and everybody else had the opportunity to raise big bucks and have a great RTC but chose to spend their energy elsewhere. Not if they wanted to stay within the NCAA rules. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husker_Du Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1032004 you are incredibly off the mark. let's just leave it at that. 1 TBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgaveMaria Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Iowa will never be the same until The Terrible Two get over their current case of PTFD. John Smith is over it and look at how Oklahoma State is performing. Now Tom & Terry are suffering and it has hit the whole team. Will it take two full seasons for them to be Ferrari Free like it has for John Smith? ” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassling Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 15 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said: Imo, the whole "get out of the Iowa bubble" thing is about folks escaping the grinding beatdown "everyone's got it in for us" culture. It even permeates a good portion of the Iowa fanbase... PSU gets all the breaks, Carl cheats, our guys are afraid, the refs hate us, everyone we wrestle is stalling. It gets tiresome. You can't fuel a program on hatred and blame. sums it beautifully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husker_Du Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 except, no. that's not what it meant. TBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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