Can we move past the "He's only wrestled six matches" bs?

[buckshot]

So the coaches rankings come out and consensus number one guys aren't even ranked because of lack of matches? Brooks, Starocci and Kerkvleit all wrestled in the All-Star (and won) classic instead of the Black Knight Invite. Because of this they're all being penalized. 

In what world does getting three or four wins against backups or extremely low ranked wrestlers prove more than beating guys like Sloan, Lewis and Hendrickson? You could also say the same for Haines because he was slated to wrestle in the All-Star meet but his opponent was injured. By their logic if Crookham was 7-0 and had wins against Fix, Nagao, Arujao (2x), Ragusin and Bouzakis he'd be unranked. But somebody who is 14-0 but only wrestled guys from Sacred Heart, F&M, LIU and so on would get a ranking? Unless I'm wrong the only #1 current #1 guys in Flo's rankings to beat the #2 guys are Starocci and Kerk and neither are ranked. 

[Tigerfan]

3 minutes ago, buckshot said:

So the coaches rankings come out and consensus number one guys aren't even ranked because of lack of matches? Brooks, Starocci and Kerkvleit all wrestled in the All-Star (and won) classic instead of the Black Knight Invite. Because of this they're all being penalized. 

In what world does getting three or four wins against backups or extremely low ranked wrestlers prove more than beating guys like Sloan, Lewis and Hendrickson? You could also say the same for Haines because he was slated to wrestle in the All-Star meet but his opponent was injured. By their logic if Crookham was 7-0 and had wins against Fix, Nagao, Arujao (2x), Ragusin and Bouzakis he'd be unranked. But somebody who is 14-0 but only wrestled guys from Sacred Heart, F&M, LIU and so on would get a ranking? Unless I'm wrong the only #1 current #1 guys in Flo's rankings to beat the #2 guys are Starocci and Kerk and neither are ranked. 

How exactly are they being penalized? Everyone knows the minute they get the minimum match count the coaches will insert them as #1. It’s not like they’ll have to climb the rankings slowly having started at #20 or something. 
 

Everyone recognizes that this set of rankings is missing PSU’s demonstrated studs. The only people who attach much meaning to this poll are Mizzou fans who are grateful that at least the coaches haven’t forgot that Mizzou preseason had the 2nd most returning points (behind PSU, obviously) and despite all ranking services assuming that not one single starter would improve rather than regress. The results so far show that Mizzou has finally resumed its rightful place as 2nd. Is that how things will finish, only time will tell. At this point in time, however, Mizzou deserves to be ranked 2nd until results disprove that. That has not happened yet. In fact, most of Mizzou’s lineup is ranked higher now that week 1, based on results, quite the opposite of what Flo, Intermat, etc. we’re projecting initially. 

[Hammerlock3]

17 minutes ago, buckshot said:

So the coaches rankings come out and consensus number one guys aren't even ranked because of lack of matches? Brooks, Starocci and Kerkvleit all wrestled in the All-Star (and won) classic instead of the Black Knight Invite. Because of this they're all being penalized. 

In what world does getting three or four wins against backups or extremely low ranked wrestlers prove more than beating guys like Sloan, Lewis and Hendrickson? You could also say the same for Haines because he was slated to wrestle in the All-Star meet but his opponent was injured. By their logic if Crookham was 7-0 and had wins against Fix, Nagao, Arujao (2x), Ragusin and Bouzakis he'd be unranked. But somebody who is 14-0 but only wrestled guys from Sacred Heart, F&M, LIU and so on would get a ranking? Unless I'm wrong the only #1 current #1 guys in Flo's rankings to beat the #2 guys are Starocci and Kerk and neither are ranked. 

i would say its just stupid that they release these rankings so early when, based on how they are constructed, the sample size is too low. 

[Gantry]

Yep, just wait to release them for a couple weeks. 

[Caveira]

56 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

i would say its just stupid that they release these rankings so early when, based on how they are constructed, the sample size is too low. 

 

I dunno of many teams other than psu that can’t find a way to get 8 matches in.   They are 73 days into the season.   A match every 9 days isn’t a lot.  CStar is almost at a match every 12.1 days.  
 

We are 45 days until the post season.    61% of the season is gone.   

#growthesportcarl

[Hammerlock3]

1 hour ago, Caveira said:

 

I dunno of many teams other than psu that can’t find a way to get 8 matches in.   They are 73 days into the season.   A match every 9 days isn’t a lot.  CStar is almost at a match every 12.1 days.  
 

We are 45 days until the post season.    61% of the season is gone.   

#growthesportcarl

That doesn't make the rankings any more valid. If you want to point out that PSU barely competes its another topic.

[KCMO2]

We're 2/3 of the way through the season and they have fewer than 8 matches?  Unless you're injured, wrestle some damn matches!!

[ionel]

7 minutes ago, KCMO2 said:

We're 2/3 of the way through the season and they have fewer than 8 matches?  Unless you're injured, wrestle some damn matches!!

[Caveira]

1 hour ago, Hammerlock3 said:

That doesn't make the rankings any more valid. If you want to point out that PSU barely competes it’s another topic.

Psu not competing is like 70% of all active topics at the moment.  
 

Not competing is the new they gotta call stalling lol.  

Edited January 24 by Caveira

[Hammerlock3]

6 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Psu not competing is like 70% of all active topics at the moment.  
 

Not competing is the new they gotta call stalling lol.  

its one of the major obstacles between reality and making duals matter. If they did you'd really have to tell conferences to get lost because scheduling would become a universal issue. Also you'd have to get rid of conference tournaments because there is no way to have a tournament deciding the NCAA title, conference, and individual championship, which is how I think you'd have to do it....

come to think of it you'd have teams ducking whole duals not individual matches potentially.

[CHROMEBIRD]

Minimum # of matches is just one factor in the rankings. SOS is another to even out fewer high quality wins vs. pinfelling a ton of fishes.

Edited January 24 by CHROMEBIRD
pinfelling

[Caveira]

21 minutes ago, Hammerlock3 said:

its one of the major obstacles between reality and making duals matter. If they did you'd really have to tell conferences to get lost because scheduling would become a universal issue. Also you'd have to get rid of conference tournaments because there is no way to have a tournament deciding the NCAA title, conference, and individual championship, which is how I think you'd have to do it....

come to think of it you'd have teams ducking whole duals not individual matches potentially.

That’s all bs.   This trend started recently (4-5 years ago) and it was started by Cael.   #growtheaport
 

if you look at intermat rankings.    Check out the top 8 or so in each weight.   Count the # of bouts and Sort that.    Of the bottom 15 or so competitors psu dominates the bottom of the list.  No other team has more than one.   Most of the ones down there have well known injury issues (Gomez mekhi).  The average of this list is 13 and change.    100% of psu is below the avg.   
 

3    
4    
5    
6    
6    psu 174
7    psu 149
7    
7    
7    psu hwt
8    
8    psu 184
8    psu 197
9    psu 157
10    
10    psu 133
10    
10    
10    
11    
11    
12    
12    psu 125
12    
12    psu 141
12    
12    
13    
13    
13    psu 165
13    
13    
13    
14

Edited January 24 by Caveira

[Hammerlock3]

29 minutes ago, Caveira said:

That’s all bs.   This trend started recently (4-5 years ago) and it was started by Cael.   #growtheaport
 

if you look at intermat rankings.    Check out the top 8 or so in each weight.   Count the # of bouts and Sort that.    Of the bottom 15 or so competitors psu dominates the bottom of the list.  No other team has more than one.   Most of the ones down there have well known injury issues (Gomez mekhi).  The average of this list is 13 and change.    100% of psu is below the avg.   
 

3    
4    
5    
6    
6    psu 174
7    psu 149
7    
7    
7    psu hwt
8    
8    psu 184
8    psu 197
9    psu 157
10    
10    psu 133
10    
10    
10    
11    
11    
12    
12    psu 125
12    
12    psu 141
12    
12    
13    
13    
13    psu 165
13    
13    
13    
14

ok but what on earth does that have to do with my post.....

[Wrestleknownothing]

31 minutes ago, Caveira said:

That’s all bs.   This trend started recently (4-5 years ago) and it was started by Cael.   #growtheaport
 

if you look at intermat rankings.    Check out the top 8 or so in each weight.   Count the # of bouts and Sort that.    Of the bottom 15 or so competitors psu dominates the bottom of the list.  No other team has more than one.   Most of the ones down there have well known injury issues (Gomez mekhi).  The average of this list is 13 and change.    100% of psu is below the avg.   
 

3    
4    
5    
6    
6    psu 174
7    psu 149
7    
7    
7    psu hwt
8    
8    psu 184
8    psu 197
9    psu 157
10    
10    psu 133
10    
10    
10    
11    
11    
12    
12    psu 125
12    
12    psu 141
12    
12    
13    
13    
13    psu 165
13    
13    
13    
14

Yep, before the season began  PSU said they would have a light schedule first semester to allow anyone who wanted to prepare for the US Open and Olympic Trials qualifying to do so.

We can bellyache about it all we want, but one of the things that attracts top athletes is the freedom to pursue their individual goals (including internationally). That even extends to practices.

If you listen to Bartlett's media day from last week, they ask him what a typical practice is like and he says something along the lines of it's different for everyone because its based on what you need.

When Snyder did it he was Captain America. When a team has a bunch of guys who aspire to be Captain America we claim it doesn't grow the sport. When guys win Olympic medals during college we say it separates them from just college champs. When a bunch of people go for it we whine.

[buckshot]

16 hours ago, Caveira said:

That’s all bs.   This trend started recently (4-5 years ago) and it was started by Cael.   #growtheaport
 

if you look at intermat rankings.    Check out the top 8 or so in each weight.   Count the # of bouts and Sort that.    Of the bottom 15 or so competitors psu dominates the bottom of the list.  No other team has more than one.   Most of the ones down there have well known injury issues (Gomez mekhi).  The average of this list is 13 and change.    100% of psu is below the avg.   
 

3    
4    
5    
6    
6    psu 174
7    psu 149
7    
7    
7    psu hwt
8    
8    psu 184
8    psu 197
9    psu 157
10    
10    psu 133
10    
10    
10    
11    
11    
12    
12    psu 125
12    
12    psu 141
12    
12    
13    
13    
13    psu 165
13    
13    
13    
14

But who cares? Would wrestling a bunch of unranked guys even matter when you're one of the best in the world? It's like going to a HS dual and watching Bo Bassett wrestle some kid who is 2-14 and just started wrestling four months ago. 

[alex1fly]

Its not enough to win everything! The top program must be at the top of EVERY list! Lol

[JimmyCinnabon]

This happens every year with every poll that uses different criteria/algorithms. It always sorts itself out. Even last year with AB being ranked #3 at nationals despite everyone knowing he was the best guy. It mattered not. 

[wrestle87]

The reason for this is real, and its bc the committee has flubbed in the other direction in the past, and really jacked up tournaments as a result.

Rankings here are a formality at best, but  there is a reason for a match threshold.

Specifically, their names are senior year darrion caldwell and senior year Dustin schlatter.  Sadly, two of my favorite wrestlers all time, but they were no longer their best athletic selves due to injury, were given the benefit of the doubt in seeding, and defaulted very early in the tournament. 

[Fred]

18 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Yep, before the season began  PSU said they would have a light schedule first semester to allow anyone who wanted to prepare for the US Open and Olympic Trials qualifying to do so.

We can bellyache about it all we want, but one of the things that attracts top athletes is the freedom to pursue their individual goals (including internationally). That even extends to practices.

If you listen to Bartlett's media day from last week, they ask him what a typical practice is like and he says something along the lines of it's different for everyone because its based on what you need.

When Snyder did it he was Captain America. When a team has a bunch of guys who aspire to be Captain America we claim it doesn't grow the sport. When guys win Olympic medals during college we say it separates them from just college champs. When a bunch of people go for it we whine.

Psu seems to wrestle a light schedule the first half of every season, at least since I started following college wrestling 5 years ago, or so.

Snyder won Olympic gold while at Ohio state… it got results in his case. Which psu wrestlers have brought home Olympic medals while in college, for all the their soft scheduling..

and Tom Ryan didn’t create a weak schedule for the whole team. … just one of his guys who had a legitimate and immediate shot of winning Olympic medals 

[Wrestleknownothing]

18 minutes ago, Fred said:

Psu seems to wrestle a light schedule the first half of every season, at least since I started following college wrestling 5 years ago, or so.

Snyder won Olympic gold while at Ohio state… it got results in his case. Which psu wrestlers have brought home Olympic medals while in college, for all the their soft scheduling..

and Tom Ryan didn’t create a weak schedule for the whole team. … just one of his guys who had a legitimate and immediate shot of winning Olympic medals 

That is not accurate. Their pre-Big 10 duals look like this:

2014 - 5
2015 - 4
2016 - 5
2017 - 4
2018 - 4
2019 - 4
2020 - 4
2021 - 0
2022 - 8
2023 - 7
2024 - 3

So post in the post-Covid, non-Olympic years they have ramped up.

As for which PSU wrestlers have brought home a medal while in college, the answer is zero. But that focuses on past results. If we learn anything from wrestling it is that focusing on the process and doing things right, is a far superior approach to focusing on results. It is a defeatist attitude to think that just because no one at my university has ever done it means I will never do it. Giving wrestlers the opportunity to pursue their highest goal is how you get so many great wrestlers in one place.

The reason OSU made a single exception for a single wrestler is because they had a single wrestler who was looking to pursue that goal. You cannot argue because it was good for one it would not be good for others.

As for the Ohio State schedule in 2016, they wrestled 4 early season duals. A whopping one more than PSU this year. They got more matches at the Eastern Michigan Open (who I am pretty sure only the live spectators saw). 

[Fred]

58 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

That is not accurate. Their pre-Big 10 duals look like this:

2014 - 5
2015 - 4
2016 - 5
2017 - 4
2018 - 4
2019 - 4
2020 - 4
2021 - 0
2022 - 8
2023 - 7
2024 - 3

So post in the post-Covid, non-Olympic years they have ramped up.

As for which PSU wrestlers have brought home a medal while in college, the answer is zero. But that focuses on past results. If we learn anything from wrestling it is that focusing on the process and doing things right, is a far superior approach to focusing on results. It is a defeatist attitude to think that just because no one at my university has ever done it means I will never do it. Giving wrestlers the opportunity to pursue their highest goal is how you get so many great wrestlers in one place.

The reason OSU made a single exception for a single wrestler is because they had a single wrestler who was looking to pursue that goal. You cannot argue because it was good for one it would not be good for others.

As for the Ohio State schedule in 2016, they wrestled 4 early season duals. A whopping one more than PSU this year. They got more matches at the Eastern Michigan Open (who I am pretty sure only the live spectators saw). 

Well, I find his excuse lame. Be a man and create a schedule deserving of the number one ranked team. If some guys want or need to sit out some of it, then put in your backups and wrestle. 

[poorwrestler]

The best team in the country sitting on their butts while Midlands/Soldier Salute/Southern Scuffle or even Cliff Keens are going on is bad for the sport.


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