GOAT Debate

[Idaho]

17 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

What a great picture. Love it. Now how did they get to that point? How does one secure a figure four on both arms?

As a country, we should return to these lost techniques. 

[Threadkilla]

15 minutes ago, Jim L said:

If memory serves, Cael was 4X OW at NCAA as well and 3X Hodge winner v. 1X of each for Dake

Cael is also the only 4 timer (so far W/ Brooks and Starocci possibles) to be in the upper weights. 

[AgaveMaria]

Some don't know or remember Cael went up to 197 after constantly hearing "if he trys the Big Boys he'll het his arse handed to him". So, he went up and tried the Big Boys and dominated again.

He had pins/falls, technical falls and majors all over the place. Damian Hahn tried stalling and blocking all match long against him and Cael still won.

Yes, he redshirted. So did a lot of others. Dake did not. It was more a choice dictated by Coaching than anything else. When he was wrestling "officially" - he never lost. Add in those matches that did not count against his record and he has even more wins. Today some of them would count on his record.

Dake was damn good, no doubt about it. Four weights, new opponents every year. None able to wrestle and then plan against him for the next time/next year like Cael faced. The best coaches prepping their best wrestlers for the rematch - even over a couple years? Cael faced it. Dake didn't.

Then we have Yojo and others who were undefeated in their three year careers. If I had one guy to put out on the mat for "All the Marbles" in a match - it would be him. He dominated without putting up big scores. He got called for Stalling once and then ended up hurting the other wrestler as he poured it on. I know that wrestler and he seldom talke about it other than 'he hurt me, he hurt me... bad". And that wrestler was an All American, was very good. Yojo was in a class of his own. For clarity, Yojo was in my weight class at the time so yes, I am prejudiced.

All three were dominant. Dake had some losses. The other two did not.

The 159-0 on the record is the tie breaker here. A few wrestled more but no one else has the ZERO at the end coupled with four years of Outstanding Wrestler and three Hodge awards.

What I find frustrating with Cael was his early retirement from Iinternational wrestling. I and others firmly believed we had a competitor of the calibre of John Smith and felt(feel?) cheated out of years of watching him on the mat. He is dominating as a Coach, but a few more years and chances on the International stage sure would have been nice.

[dragit]

47 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Some don't know or remember Cael went up to 197 after constantly hearing "if he trys the Big Boys he'll het his arse handed to him". So, he went up and tried the Big Boys and dominated again.

He had pins/falls, technical falls and majors all over the place. Damian Hahn tried stalling and blocking all match long against him and Cael still won.

Yes, he redshirted. So did a lot of others. Dake did not. It was more a choice dictated by Coaching than anything else. When he was wrestling "officially" - he never lost. Add in those matches that did not count against his record and he has even more wins. Today some of them would count on his record.

Dake was damn good, no doubt about it. Four weights, new opponents every year. None able to wrestle and then plan against him for the next time/next year like Cael faced. The best coaches prepping their best wrestlers for the rematch - even over a couple years? Cael faced it. Dake didn't.

Then we have Yojo and others who were undefeated in their three year careers. If I had one guy to put out on the mat for "All the Marbles" in a match - it would be him. He dominated without putting up big scores. He got called for Stalling once and then ended up hurting the other wrestler as he poured it on. I know that wrestler and he seldom talke about it other than 'he hurt me, he hurt me... bad". And that wrestler was an All American, was very good. Yojo was in a class of his own. For clarity, Yojo was in my weight class at the time so yes, I am prejudiced.

All three were dominant. Dake had some losses. The other two did not.

The 159-0 on the record is the tie breaker here. A few wrestled more but no one else has the ZERO at the end coupled with four years of Outstanding Wrestler and three Hodge awards.

What I find frustrating with Cael was his early retirement from Iinternational wrestling. I and others firmly believed we had a competitor of the calibre of John Smith and felt(feel?) cheated out of years of watching him on the mat. He is dominating as a Coach, but a few more years and chances on the International stage sure would have been nice.

Really good points in here.  On the redshirting, while what you say is accurate, it doesn't go to what I think is the key point/question:  Would Cael have been a 4x champ if he hadn't redshirted?  Obviously it's a hypothetical, so I can't claim anything conclusively, but I don't have high confidence that he would have won an NCAA title 9 months out of high school.  And if he doesn't win 4, then he's obviously not in the conversation.  

[dragit]

So I was walking past the TV the other day and someone was on saying something to the effect of, You don't really understand the complexities of what Tom Cruise does.  He does his own stunts, he's working constantly, driving everyone else around him to do better, etc.  Same thing here - no one understands the complexities of arguing on the message board.  Case in point:  When do I play my hole card?  If I'm too quick, then the argument could get ignored in the flurry of other postings, but if I wait too long, then nobody's really paying attention any more.  

Anyway, I think it's time for my Dake Trump Card:  People, he accomplished so much with the most rudimentary, prehistoric training methods.  Back in college he didn't know anything about nutrition, about collagens, about sunlight, about functional patterns, electric waves.  It's a wonder he could even stay upright, and he smoked David Taylor three times in a row.  Case closed.  GOAT.  

[VakAttack]

13 hours ago, dragit said:

You hit the key points of my ritual argument for Dake:

1.  No redshirt, no redshirt, no redshirt.  Huge difference.  He won an NCAA championship nine months after he was in high school. How confident is everyone Cael would have done that?

2.  Never really in substantial jeopardy at NCAAs.  And his four wins in the finals were notable.  Marion, who made another final and lost in OT, and who lost a semi on calls so extreme that they contributed to rule changes.  He absolutely brutalized Molinaro, who then became an undefeated national champ.  Then St. John, who won the next year.  And the coup de grace was the great David Taylor, who won the Hodge the year before and the year after.  Kyle Dake, sitting on three titles, went up a weight to where he wasn't even cutting to wrestle the Hodge winner, and beat him three times in a row in three completely different matches.  This is an extraordinary fact.

3.  Not as dominant before NCAAs, but he was putting together a very strong academic record at an Ivy League school and cutting a lot of weight the years he lost matches.  It's reality -- that's a very big impediment that's gonna lead to competing in a lot of matches when you're just exhausted.

I think picking Cael is totally reasonable and defensible.  But I have Dake at least in a tie with him.

1.  Dake had no redshirt, but Cael did.  True, but Dake also had two losses in what would have been his redshirt freshman year, whereas Cael obviously was undefeated.  His two losses were to Donnie Vinson (who went 0-2 at NCAAs) and Kevin LeValley (who took 7th).  If Dake had been undefeated his last 4 years of college, this would be more a point in your favor.

2. Uhh...neither was Cael, the four time NCAA OW.  He bonused his way to the finals as a freshman, bonused his way through the whole tournament as a sophomore including a major in the semis over Eggum, the only guy to hold him to a decision at the NCAAs as a freshman, bonused his way to the finals again as a junior, and finally bonused his way through the whole tournament again as a senior.

3.  Not as dominant before the NCAAs or at the NCAAs.  Dake had 9 total bonus point wins at the NCAAs.  Cael had 18.

17 hours ago, Mike Cruickshank said:

Normally it wouldn't matter, but when you claim there is no legitimate case for Dake, what I am about to say needs to be considered.  Cael wasn't undefeated.  He lost in the 1997-1998 season to the late Paul Jenn during his true freshman (redshirt) year.

Jenn, who I believe was a walk on at Iowa, took 6th at Big 10's in 1998, going 1-3.  He went 2-2 at nationals; getting majored (Aaron Simpson) and teched (Eggum) against the 4th and 5th place finishers.  

This isn't just a technicality; Dake didn't redshirt his true freshman year. Who knows how many other matches Cael would have lost against higher level competition had he competed like Dake. Maybe he would have went on a run and still won nationals; we will never know.  But being undefeated would not be an argument in his favor if he is going to be judged on a similar playing field.  

You can obviously still say that Cael is the best.  I agree with you on Cael being the greatest due to his incredible rate of improvement and high level of bonus against top competition (He teched Paul Jenn just a year later).  Dake wrestled tighter matches against better guys. But to say there is no argument for Dake does not take all the facts into consideration.  

Again, see above.  The redshirt argment might hold more weight with me if Dake had gone undefeated his last three years of college.  He didn't.  He lost to Donnie Vinson as a sophomore (0-2 at NCAAs that year) and Kevin LeValley (7th place that year).

[Idaho]

Cael was also a Wade Schalles award winner.

[dragit]

1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

1.  Dake had no redshirt, but Cael did.  True, but Dake also had two losses in what would have been his redshirt freshman year, whereas Cael obviously was undefeated.  His two losses were to Donnie Vinson (who went 0-2 at NCAAs) and Kevin LeValley (who took 7th).  If Dake had been undefeated his last 4 years of college, this would be more a point in your favor.

2. Uhh...neither was Cael, the four time NCAA OW.  He bonused his way to the finals as a freshman, bonused his way through the whole tournament as a sophomore including a major in the semis over Eggum, the only guy to hold him to a decision at the NCAAs as a freshman, bonused his way to the finals again as a junior, and finally bonused his way through the whole tournament again as a senior.

3.  Not as dominant before the NCAAs or at the NCAAs.  Dake had 9 total bonus point wins at the NCAAs.  Cael had 18.

Again, see above.  The redshirt argment might hold more weight with me if Dake had gone undefeated his last three years of college.  He didn't.  He lost to Donnie Vinson as a sophomore (0-2 at NCAAs that year) and Kevin LeValley (7th place that year).

Those all all good points but they don't address the most relevant question.  How confident are you that Cael would have won NCAAs as a true freshman?

[ionel]

3 hours ago, dragit said:

  Case closed.   

Didn't Dake lose?  You are correct, case closed!  

Edited January 19 by ionel

[mspart]

20 hours ago, Mike Cruickshank said:

Normally it wouldn't matter, but when you claim there is no legitimate case for Dake, what I am about to say needs to be considered.  Cael wasn't undefeated.  He lost in the 1997-1998 season to the late Paul Jenn during his true freshman (redshirt) year.

Jenn, who I believe was a walk on at Iowa, took 6th at Big 10's in 1998, going 1-3.  He went 2-2 at nationals; getting majored (Aaron Simpson) and teched (Eggum) against the 4th and 5th place finishers.  

This isn't just a technicality; Dake didn't redshirt his true freshman year. Who knows how many other matches Cael would have lost against higher level competition had he competed like Dake. Maybe he would have went on a run and still won nationals; we will never know.  But being undefeated would not be an argument in his favor if he is going to be judged on a similar playing field.  

You can obviously still say that Cael is the best.  I agree with you on Cael being the greatest due to his incredible rate of improvement and high level of bonus against top competition (He teched Paul Jenn just a year later).  Dake wrestled tighter matches against better guys. But to say there is no argument for Dake does not take all the facts into consideration.  

Dake lost 2 matches his sophomore year.   That would be equivalent to Cael's Freshman year after redshirt.  Cael did not lose that year or in the next 3.   So I see Cael as still the GOAT.  Like I said, Dake makes a very good argument. 

mspart

[ionel]

37 minutes ago, mspart said:

Dake lost 2 matches his sophomore year.   That would be equivalent to Cael's Freshman year after redshirt.  Cael did not lose that year or in the next 3.   So I see Cael as still the GOAT.  Like I said, Dake makes a very good argument. 

mspart

Uetake did not lose, period. 

[dragit]

56 minutes ago, mspart said:

Dake lost 2 matches his sophomore year.   That would be equivalent to Cael's Freshman year after redshirt.  Cael did not lose that year or in the next 3.   So I see Cael as still the GOAT.  Like I said, Dake makes a very good argument. 

mspart

Yeah but go the other way.  Did Cael look like the national champ his redshirt year?

[Iwrite]

Dan Hodge had a pretty good year as a junior at OU in 1956. He pinned his way through both the Big Seven Conference and NCAA meets with a total of six straight and was named OW at both meets. Two weeks later, he won the national AAU freestyle title with six straight pins and was named OW. The next day, he won the Greco-Roman nationals with three pins. In the span of 16 days, Hodge won national titles in three styles and a tough conference meet -- with 15 straight pins! A few months later, on April 1, 1957,  he became the first (and only) wrestler ever to appear on the cover of  Sports Illustrated.

 

 

 

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

20 hours ago, Iwrite said:

Dan Hodge had a pretty good year as a junior at OU in 1956.

Your mastery of understatement cannot be overstated.

[11986]

On 1/19/2024 at 12:43 PM, AgaveMaria said:

Some don't know or remember Cael went up to 197 after constantly hearing "if he trys the Big Boys he'll het his arse handed to him". So, he went up and tried the Big Boys and dominated again.

He had pins/falls, technical falls and majors all over the place. Damian Hahn tried stalling and blocking all match long against him and Cael still won.

If you’re talking about the year Cael won at 197, Hahn wasn’t there.