Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 10 minutes ago, ionel said: The AT is all time, you can't be the GOAT until you've beaten the current goat on the mat or via statistics. Uetake never beaten, never challenged, won Olympic gold while in college so best in the world as well as college. Cael didn't do that so never trumped The GOAT. nuff said Didn't Uetake lose in veterans worlds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 8 minutes ago, ionel said: The AT is all time, you can't be the GOAT until you've beaten the current goat on the mat or via statistics. Uetake never beaten, never challenged, won Olympic gold while in college so best in the world as well as college. Cael didn't do that so never trumped The GOAT. nuff said Just summarizing the thread, but.... Correct.... to be the GOAT you have to beat the current GOAT on the mat or via statistics. Robin Reed was never beaten, never challenged and won an Olympic gold while in college so best in the world as well as college. Well documented that he pinned many of the members of the Olympic team. Cael and Uetake didn't do that so never trumped The GOAT.. From Olympic.com Robin Reed was America’s greatest wrestler in the pre-WW2 era, and possibly the greatest ever. In a career that began in high school, and then at Oregon State, he was never defeated, winning three AAU titles in 1921, 1922, and 1924. He was not tremendously strong but worked endlessly on improving his moves to better himself. He was also a bit of a character. While hitchhiking his way across the country to join the 1924 Olympic team in New York, he stopped at Iowa State and asked the coach if he could work out when the team came to practice. When the coach refused, Reed asked if he could if he pinned every man on the team. He then stood in the doorway and grabbed each team member as he came to practice, pinning all of them in quick succession. Reed weighed only 135 lbs., but at the Paris Olympics he won a bet when he pinned Harry Steel, the American heavyweight gold medalist, five times within 15 minutes. 1 Sponsored by INTERMAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elevator Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 13 hours ago, Hammerlock3 said: Another feather in his cap is the way cael wrestled. Dake was capable of boring matches his whole career. I noticed this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 3 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: Didn't Uetake lose in veterans worlds? I don't know about that but pretty sure he lost a racketball match to Roderick, whats your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 4 minutes ago, ionel said: I don't know about that but pretty sure he lost a racketball match to Roderick, whats your point. He lost a wrestling match... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 4 minutes ago, Idaho said: Just summarizing the thread, but.... Correct.... to be the GOAT you have to beat the current GOAT on the mat or via statistics. Robin Reed was never beaten, never challenged and won an Olympic gold while in college so best in the world as well as college. Well documented that he pinned many of the members of the Olympic team. Cael and Uetake didn't do that so never trumped The GOAT.. From Olympic.com Robin Reed was America’s greatest wrestler in the pre-WW2 era, and possibly the greatest ever. In a career that began in high school, and then at Oregon State, he was never defeated, winning three AAU titles in 1921, 1922, and 1924. He was not tremendously strong but worked endlessly on improving his moves to better himself. He was also a bit of a character. While hitchhiking his way across the country to join the 1924 Olympic team in New York, he stopped at Iowa State and asked the coach if he could work out when the team came to practice. When the coach refused, Reed asked if he could if he pinned every man on the team. He then stood in the doorway and grabbed each team member as he came to practice, pinning all of them in quick succession. Reed weighed only 135 lbs., but at the Paris Olympics he won a bet when he pinned Harry Steel, the American heavyweight gold medalist, five times within 15 minutes. Wkn our esteemed expert of all things data and statistical would say he is dq'd for not asking if he "pinfelled" the entire team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: He lost a wrestling match... In college? The racketball match would've been in college. He also never lost a duel. Edited January 19 by ionel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 4 minutes ago, ionel said: In college? The racketball match would've been in college. He also never lost a duel. Funny... I thought someone brought up international results. So four years of college undefeated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: Funny... I thought someone brought up international results. So four years of college undefeated? In college, he was also best in the world directly out of college, Cael not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juniorvarsity Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 13 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said: It's not just that Kale was undefeated and steamrolled a tough field. It's 159 wins. That's a damn big number. And in just 4 years. By contrast, look at his two currently most accomplished wrestlers. Brooks won't crack 100 wins over 5 seasons and will finish his career with less than two thirds of Kale's win total. And Starocci could come back for a 6th year and run the table but he still won't come close to 159. 159 in 4 is definitely a GOAT number. 40 matches a year will never happen again. We are 7 weeks out from Big Tens and Penn State has 8 more dual meets on their schedule. Mitchell Messenbrink has the most matches of any Penn State guy with 11 matches so far this year(7 matches at opens) Starocci and Brooks dealt with the 2021 lightened schedule year that in turn changed the way coaches schedule their seasons forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 If Dake only took losses in his true freshman season he would have a bigger argument. Since two of his losses came after his freshman year, Cael is the obvious pick. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) 16 minutes ago, juniorvarsity said: 40 matches a year will never happen again. We are 7 weeks out from Big Tens and Penn State has 8 more dual meets on their schedule. Mitchell Messenbrink has the most matches of any Penn State guy with 11 matches so far this year(7 matches at opens) Starocci and Brooks dealt with the 2021 lightened schedule year that in turn changed the way coaches schedule their seasons forever. I would like to see the seeding formula contain some sort of incentive for "number of matches wrestled." PSU certainly has a winning formula, but it is not great for promoting the sport. Our best guys need to be out there more than 15 times a year and putting it on the line. PSU non-conference schedule is also amongst the weakest I have ever seen for a team that should have a dominant national title run. Yes, their formula is working, but does it promote the sport in the long term? Edited January 19 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex1fly Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 I think the real question is, which GOAT thread is the GOAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 41 minutes ago, Idaho said: Just summarizing the thread, but.... Correct.... to be the GOAT you have to beat the current GOAT on the mat or via statistics. Robin Reed was never beaten, never challenged and won an Olympic gold while in college so best in the world as well as college. Well documented that he pinned many of the members of the Olympic team. Cael and Uetake didn't do that so never trumped The GOAT.. From Olympic.com Robin Reed was America’s greatest wrestler in the pre-WW2 era, and possibly the greatest ever. In a career that began in high school, and then at Oregon State, he was never defeated, winning three AAU titles in 1921, 1922, and 1924. He was not tremendously strong but worked endlessly on improving his moves to better himself. He was also a bit of a character. While hitchhiking his way across the country to join the 1924 Olympic team in New York, he stopped at Iowa State and asked the coach if he could work out when the team came to practice. When the coach refused, Reed asked if he could if he pinned every man on the team. He then stood in the doorway and grabbed each team member as he came to practice, pinning all of them in quick succession. Reed weighed only 135 lbs., but at the Paris Olympics he won a bet when he pinned Harry Steel, the American heavyweight gold medalist, five times within 15 minutes. I love the Robin Reed stories. As a matter of fact, I could not love them any more than I do. But.... They are impossible to verify. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanut Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 15 hours ago, blueandgold said: When it comes to the world of college wrestling, if you ask who the GOAT is, chances are you’ll hear Cael Sanderson’s name 95% of the time as he was a four-time champion who never lost a match, and that feels like it doesn’t do him justice, because not only did he win, but he dominated nearly every match. However, as of late, I feel as if Kyle Dake’s feat is equally, if not more impressive when considering what he did and who he did it against. Yes, Dake lost four matches in his career, but he also won a national championship in FOUR different weight classes, and all four of his finals opponents were finalists once more after facing him, three of whom ended up being crowned national champions the next year after facing Dake. So, if the GOAT debate stops at record, Cael is undisputed. However, all things considered, I think Dake makes a case. In terms of credentials, there are two GOATS. For the four-years-of-eligibility era, it's Sanderson. For the three-years-of-eligibility era, it's Uetake. Uetake went undefeated, was never tested (according to his coach), and won an Olympic title after his sophomore season. And if we were going to say there is only one GOAT, I think Uetake has a great argument for that distinction. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 36 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: I love the Robin Reed stories. As a matter of fact, I could not love them any more than I do. But.... They are impossible to verify. You need to let the official olympic website know. Sponsored by INTERMAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, ionel said: Wkn our esteemed expert of all things data and statistical would say he is dq'd for not asking if he "pinfelled" the entire team. I feel I am getting the Kolat treatment. Sponsored by INTERMAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 2 minutes ago, Idaho said: You need to let the official olympic website know. They know 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanut Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 hour ago, Idaho said: Just summarizing the thread, but.... Correct.... to be the GOAT you have to beat the current GOAT on the mat or via statistics. Robin Reed was never beaten, never challenged and won an Olympic gold while in college so best in the world as well as college. Well documented that he pinned many of the members of the Olympic team. Cael and Uetake didn't do that so never trumped The GOAT.. From Olympic.com Robin Reed was America’s greatest wrestler in the pre-WW2 era, and possibly the greatest ever. In a career that began in high school, and then at Oregon State, he was never defeated, winning three AAU titles in 1921, 1922, and 1924. He was not tremendously strong but worked endlessly on improving his moves to better himself. He was also a bit of a character. While hitchhiking his way across the country to join the 1924 Olympic team in New York, he stopped at Iowa State and asked the coach if he could work out when the team came to practice. When the coach refused, Reed asked if he could if he pinned every man on the team. He then stood in the doorway and grabbed each team member as he came to practice, pinning all of them in quick succession. Reed weighed only 135 lbs., but at the Paris Olympics he won a bet when he pinned Harry Steel, the American heavyweight gold medalist, five times within 15 minutes. This is allegedly a picture of Robin Reed putting in the work: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 9 minutes ago, peanut said: This is allegedly a picture of Robin Reed putting in the work: Doesn't look like a pin or a fall much less ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle26 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 Uetake definitely has an argument over Cael. Dake not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammerlock3 Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 1 minute ago, Eagle26 said: Uetake definitely has an argument over Cael. Dake not so much. Dakes argument, which isn't a rationally good one, is that his story is way better. The Dake movie would be way more interesting than the Cael movie, because Cael doesn't really have an arc, he's like Ray in those horrible star wars sequels. Does this have anything to do with what we think we are talking about no? Do people like to organize facts into stories, yes. "Half measures are a coward's form of insanity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 19 minutes ago, peanut said: This is allegedly a picture of Robin Reed putting in the work: What a great picture. Love it. Now how did they get to that point? How does one secure a figure four on both arms? 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 If memory serves, Cael was 4X OW at NCAA as well and 3X Hodge winner v. 1X of each for Dake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threadkilla Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 37 minutes ago, peanut said: This is allegedly a picture of Robin Reed putting in the work: Winn Dixie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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