Assuming both Starocci and Brooks win 4 NCAA titles...who had the better career?

[Hammerlock3]

3 minutes ago, ionel said:

ftfy

its a shame they couldn't pull the flu card twice. 

[lightweight]

This is mostly irrelevant to the question asked, but it has the benefit of being current.

I watched the PSU-Hofstra match on BTN+.  Hofstra was clearly over-matched, and I wonder why this was even scheduled.  Half of the PSU wrestlers were the backups -- maybe there were no Opens for them to go to so they got to wrestle in Rec Hall once (as a plug for future recruiting?)  But I digress.

#1 Brooks does what he should do against an unranked opponent - takes him down, grabs a wrist and a half and turns him and pins him.  Sportsmanlike and efficient.

#1 Starocci (sp?) takes his opponent down and pulls him arm over his head and has to be stopped by the official twice for potentially dangerous, and ultimately never pins him.  It was a bad look, IMHO.  

But, as I said, this is not an answer to the question the OP asked.  But I know who I would vote for in a popularity contest.  

 

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, lightweight said:

This is mostly irrelevant to the question asked, but it has the benefit of being current.

I watched the PSU-Hofstra match on BTN+.  Hofstra was clearly over-matched, and I wonder why this was even scheduled.  Half of the PSU wrestlers were the backups -- maybe there were no Opens for them to go to so they got to wrestle in Rec Hall once (as a plug for future recruiting?)  But I digress.

#1 Brooks does what he should do against an unranked opponent - takes him down, grabs a wrist and a half and turns him and pins him.  Sportsmanlike and efficient.

#1 Starocci (sp?) takes his opponent down and pulls him arm over his head and has to be stopped by the official twice for potentially dangerous, and ultimately never pins him.  It was a bad look, IMHO.  

But, as I said, this is not an answer to the question the OP asked.  But I know who I would vote for in a popularity contest.  

 

i agree with the take, despite it not being completely pertinent. 

[jross]

Could Starocci beat (T) Hidlay?

[Hammerlock3]

1 minute ago, jross said:

Could Starocci beat (T) Hidlay?

obviously not

[wrestle87]

5 hours ago, mspart said:

Someone needs to step up and bury them ala Schultz did to Banach.   It is seemingly getting much easier to be a 4 timer as time goes on.   Just looking at the PSU website, Starrocci is in his 4th year, Brooks in his 5th year.   That is just wrong. 

Just my opinion.   You get 4 years of active competing, not more. 

mspart

I get that, but that’s also 1) still extremely difficult 2) a result of the best guys making use of prep and technology, and using everything that we have at our fingertips that wasn’t there in the past, which I think is largely mindset-driven.  

No coincidence that Yianni won after such extensive exposure to dake, and that Cael is passing along his knowledge to his guys.  

Also, this isn’t a new goal, Iowa guys in the 80’s were knocking on the 4x door, they just never got over the hump.  

Let’s keep in mind, with a real referee, Jordan oliver is a 3xer and logan steiber is also a 3xer.  We’re not exactly swimming in 4x wrestlers.

[Antitroll2828]

32 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

 

Let’s keep in mind, with a real referee, Jordan oliver is a 3xer and logan steiber is also a 3xer.  We’re not exactly swimming in 4x wrestlers.

Agreed on this and also if Darrion Caldwell doesn’t get into a freak Rollerblading accident Dake might only be a 3x and as a bonus we wouldn’t have had to watch the most boring ncaa final ever , Dake riding frank molinaro like a merry go round pony for 6 and half minutes

[1032004]

5 hours ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

Didn't Brooks greyshirt a year?

I think Brooks' win over Amine is probably the best between the pair.

Debatable of course but I wonder if you’re overvaluing Amine based on his international success.  In reality his NCAA career is probably similar to guys like Kemerer or Hayden Hidlay who Starocci beat (as well as Trent Hidlay that Brooks beat). 
 

But yeah overall their careers are very comparable but I think I’d give Starocci the edge for beating a previous champ (Lewis). Brooks has not beaten an NCAA Champ (either at the time or would become one in the future).  Although Keckeisen may change that.

[FearTheTurtle]

Obviously it’s Brooks. He had a major disadvantage being from Maryland and not sharpened by Pennsylvania steel

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by FearTheTurtle

[mspart]

22 hours ago, mspart said:

Someone needs to step up and bury them ala Schultz did to Banach.   It is seemingly getting much easier to be a 4 timer as time goes on.   Just looking at the PSU website, Starrocci is in his 4th year, Brooks in his 5th year.   That is just wrong. 

Just my opinion.   You get 4 years of active competing, not more. 

mspart

OK, I looked at each at competition and it looked like Brooks is in his 5th year of full competition.   Maybe one of those was the covid year.   OK.   I can understand that.  I've read the comments and I appreciate the clarifcations.

But no one has offered comment on my statement that someone needs to step up and bury them like Mark Schultz did to Banach.   Is there no one out there that can do that these days?   The kid from Lehigh, Crookham, seemingly has come out of  nowhere to be #1.   Someone needs to make a move on these two guys. 

mspart

[Wrestleknownothing]

10 minutes ago, mspart said:

OK, I looked at each at competition and it looked like Brooks is in his 5th year of full competition.   Maybe one of those was the covid year.   OK.   I can understand that.  I've read the comments and I appreciate the clarifcations.

But no one has offered comment on my statement that someone needs to step up and bury them like Mark Schultz did to Banach.   Is there no one out there that can do that these days?   The kid from Lehigh, Crookham, seemingly has come out of  nowhere to be #1.   Someone needs to make a move on these two guys. 

mspart

I was all in on Diakomihalis and Lee winning their fourth last year and I am all in on Starocci and Brooks winning their fourth this year.

[AgaveMaria]

Real question is whether Penn State finally getting TWO four timers puts them at the elevated level of Cornell with TWO four timers?

Cornell did it first, Penn State hasn't yet done it.

Iowa has not done it either and under the current coaching cabal doesn't stand a chance.

mspart wrote:  "no one has offered comment on my statement that someone needs to step up and bury them like Mark Schultz did to Banach. "

Nope, no one like Mark out there in either weight class. One big difference is these two are going for their Fourth having actuall won three already. Banach was being hyped for Four before he had Three in hand.

Big question here is whether they can win their Fourth by squeaking by in a close one or like Cael - going away and pushing for more scoring through the final seconds?

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by AgaveMaria

[jchapman]

I think most of us know this, but I want to point out that Schultz went up a weight class and beat Banach. 

[Eagle26]

174 is no-man's land because of Sta(l)rocci as well, gents.

I think they mean 174 is no man’s lands as in it’s a tweener weight for international. It does suck for guys like Starocci… Brooks does have a better freestyle resume, but it’s not really a fair comparison

[scourge165]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:24 PM, wrestle87 said:

I get that, but that’s also 1) still extremely difficult 2) a result of the best guys making use of prep and technology, and using everything that we have at our fingertips that wasn’t there in the past, which I think is largely mindset-driven.  

No coincidence that Yianni won after such extensive exposure to dake, and that Cael is passing along his knowledge to his guys.  

Also, this isn’t a new goal, Iowa guys in the 80’s were knocking on the 4x door, they just never got over the hump.  

Let’s keep in mind, with a real referee, Jordan oliver is a 3xer and logan steiber is also a 3xer.  We’re not exactly swimming in 4x wrestlers.

No. That was 100% the right call that year. That was a "point of emphasis," you had to get your head out. 

It'd be a clear TD today(or I think even just the following year) but that was the right call.

I agree with the larger point. If Cary Kolat or Alan Fried(or a dozen others) were working out with the NLWC like a Beau Bassett is in HS and had more exposure, they could have won 4(Kolat damn near did).

But the Oliver and Stieber one is just wrongly blamed on the refs. The refs made it clear to the coaches that year THAT exact position would not be a TD unless you got your head out. 

[scourge165]

8 hours ago, mspart said:

OK, I looked at each at competition and it looked like Brooks is in his 5th year of full competition.   Maybe one of those was the covid year.   OK.   I can understand that.  I've read the comments and I appreciate the clarifcations.

But no one has offered comment on my statement that someone needs to step up and bury them like Mark Schultz did to Banach.   Is there no one out there that can do that these days?   The kid from Lehigh, Crookham, seemingly has come out of  nowhere to be #1.   Someone needs to make a move on these two guys. 

mspart

Throw out a suggestion. It's not that easy to bump up and knock off 3X NCs. I don't think Carr could do it...and he's an incredible Wrestler.

O'Toole I think MIGHT have a shot due to his style of Wrestling. I think that'd be a match Starocci would be very cautious in and win a close, lower-scoring match(unless O'Toole forced the issue I guess).

At 197, I think it's possible a guy like Trumble can beat Brooks....if he were Wrestling this year. I wouldn't bet on it, but I've been waiting for him to break out the last couple years. He's so big for a '97, the length, big legs and moves well. But, other than him...I don't see a Schultz out there. Then you factor in that this year is an Olympic year and...what's the point to move up to '74 of '97 just to have to cut back down to ~163 and ~186? 

[Le duke]

Unless O’Toole bumped up to a true 174 (unlikely before 2024), I could see that match going very poorly for him.

Carter isn’t getting cradled by KOT. He wouldn’t give him the opportunity. Starocci is far more likely to score from neutral, very unlikely to give up any points to KOT from neutral, and could very well ride KOT the entire second or third period if he wanted.


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[nhs67]

8 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Throw out a suggestion. It's not that easy to bump up and knock off 3X NCs. I don't think Carr could do it...and he's an incredible Wrestler.

I don't think Carr would have it against Sta(l)rocci.  At 174lbs he just doesn't match up well on any avenue.  Sta(l)rocci is longer, stronger, bigger, better on top than Carr is on bottom, just as fast, and just as good neutral.

8 hours ago, scourge165 said:

O'Toole I think MIGHT have a shot due to his style of Wrestling. I think that'd be a match Starocci would be very cautious in and win a close, lower-scoring match(unless O'Toole forced the issue I guess).

O'Toole got physically handled against Carr in their first two matches.  Unless O'Toole spent an entire offseason growing in to 174lbs (which he did not) I would not give him a fart's chance in a shit storm against Sta(l)rocci this year.

8 hours ago, scourge165 said:

At 197, I think it's possible a guy like Trumble can beat Brooks....if he were Wrestling this year. I wouldn't bet on it, but I've been waiting for him to break out the last couple years. He's so big for a '97, the length, big legs and moves well. But, other than him...I don't see a Schultz out there. Then you factor in that this year is an Olympic year and...what's the point to move up to '74 of '97 just to have to cut back down to ~163 and ~186? 

I really want to see Trumble at Heavyweight next season.  He is an entirely different wrestler when he wrestles 97 KG (213lbs) rather than 197lbs.

 

[Gus]

10 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Throw out a suggestion. It's not that easy to bump up and knock off 3X NCs. I don't think Carr could do it...and he's an incredible Wrestler.

O'Toole I think MIGHT have a shot due to his style of Wrestling. I think that'd be a match Starocci would be very cautious in and win a close, lower-scoring match(unless O'Toole forced the issue I guess).

At 197, I think it's possible a guy like Trumble can beat Brooks....if he were Wrestling this year. I wouldn't bet on it, but I've been waiting for him to break out the last couple years. He's so big for a '97, the length, big legs and moves well. But, other than him...I don't see a Schultz out there. Then you factor in that this year is an Olympic year and...what's the point to move up to '74 of '97 just to have to cut back down to ~163 and ~186? 

Brooks biggest tests are going to be Hidlay and Ferrari. He is favored in both matches for sure but that will be his toughest competition. FWIW Rocky Elam and Stephen Buchanan fit the bill of big, lengthy, strong 197 pounders that could in theory give Brooks a tough match.. But after watching his beat down on Sloan at the all star classic I have a hard time envisioning it.

There is not anyone keeping up with Starocci at 174 this year in my opinion. He made the #2 guy look like he was scared to be out there against him. It is possible someone like Gabe Arnold could emerge and push for a title chance against Starocci but getting to the championship and beating Starocci are two different challenges. 

[Caveira]

16 hours ago, Le duke said:

Unless O’Toole bumped up to a true 174 (unlikely before 2024), I could see that match going very poorly for him.

Carter isn’t getting cradled by KOT. He wouldn’t give him the opportunity. Starocci is far more likely to score from neutral, very unlikely to give up any points to KOT from neutral, and could very well ride KOT the entire second or third period if he wanted.


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With this years or last years stalling rules on top?   

[Le duke]

With this years or last years stalling rules on top?   

You might want to watch his NWCA match. It wouldn’t matter. At all.


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[scourge165]

11 hours ago, Gus said:

Brooks biggest tests are going to be Hidlay and Ferrari. He is favored in both matches for sure but that will be his toughest competition. FWIW Rocky Elam and Stephen Buchanan fit the bill of big, lengthy, strong 197 pounders that could in theory give Brooks a tough match.. But after watching his beat down on Sloan at the all star classic I have a hard time envisioning it.

There is not anyone keeping up with Starocci at 174 this year in my opinion. He made the #2 guy look like he was scared to be out there against him. It is possible someone like Gabe Arnold could emerge and push for a title chance against Starocci but getting to the championship and beating Starocci are two different challenges. 

Yeah, they've won 6 titles in 6 tournaments for a reason. Rocky Elam fits the bill a bit more, but he doesn't move as well as Trumble IMO and I don't think Buchanan is nearly as big or long. Again, Trumble is 6'4 and looks like a HWT already. It looks like he's already cutting pretty good to make '97. 

Brooks just finishes so cleanly, I don't think anyone can(same with whoever replied by telling me O'Toole would lose to Starocci). But just throwing out the most likely upsets.

Hidlay could pull it off and I'm not counting Ferrari yet. If I don't know if he's going to Wrestle yet(unless something has come out). But I think Brooks will end up beating HIdlay pretty soundly. I just like Trumble and think if he could slow down Brooks, particularly if Brooks didn't finish a shot cleanly, that'd make things interesting.

 

[1032004]

11 hours ago, Gus said:

Brooks biggest tests are going to be Hidlay and Ferrari. He is favored in both matches for sure but that will be his toughest competition. FWIW Rocky Elam and Stephen Buchanan fit the bill of big, lengthy, strong 197 pounders that could in theory give Brooks a tough match.. But after watching his beat down on Sloan at the all star classic I have a hard time envisioning it.

There is not anyone keeping up with Starocci at 174 this year in my opinion. He made the #2 guy look like he was scared to be out there against him. It is possible someone like Gabe Arnold could emerge and push for a title chance against Starocci but getting to the championship and beating Starocci are two different challenges. 

Agree.  No one’s beating Starocci.  After seeing Brooks lose to Marcus Coleman and him moving up a weight, I’d be surprised but not shocked if he lost.  I’d give Ferrari the best chance. Outside of him I’d say maybe Michael Beard due to the familiarity angle 

[scourge165]

13 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I don't think Carr would have it against Sta(l)rocci.  At 174lbs he just doesn't match up well on any avenue.  Sta(l)rocci is longer, stronger, bigger, better on top than Carr is on bottom, just as fast, and just as good neutral.

O'Toole got physically handled against Carr in their first two matches.  Unless O'Toole spent an entire offseason growing in to 174lbs (which he did not) I would not give him a fart's chance in a shit storm against Sta(l)rocci this year.

I really want to see Trumble at Heavyweight next season.  He is an entirely different wrestler when he wrestles 97 KG (213lbs) rather than 197lbs.

 

I don't think O'Toole's problem was Carr was just physically too strong, Carr just wrestled very smart and finished cleanly in the first two and then in the Finals, O'Toole was able to wrestle his style and forced Carr to attack a bit more which suits his style. 

It's unlikely that anyone is going to beat either. Maybe this is why nobody actually named someone. Obviously it's easier to take the overwhelming favorites at their weights vs guys bumping up to Wrestle them, but...it's about who is the MOST likely. 

 

Trumble is why I wouldn't mind seeing a 220 in College. There are a few guys I can think of who cut too much OR are lighter HWTs. Guys like Davidson or Hilger just from the B1G. Bastida would be a stud there. Feldman from OSU is a smaller HWT, right? Similar to Snyder. 

97KG is probably closer to a natural weight for Trumble. I could easily see him moving up to HWT and weighing ~240 if he wanted. He has the frame for it. 

[nhs67]

45 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I don't think O'Toole's problem was Carr was just physically too strong, Carr just wrestled very smart and finished cleanly in the first two and then in the Finals, O'Toole was able to wrestle his style and forced Carr to attack a bit more which suits his style. 

It's unlikely that anyone is going to beat either. Maybe this is why nobody actually named someone. Obviously it's easier to take the overwhelming favorites at their weights vs guys bumping up to Wrestle them, but...it's about who is the MOST likely. 

 

Trumble is why I wouldn't mind seeing a 220 in College. There are a few guys I can think of who cut too much OR are lighter HWTs. Guys like Davidson or Hilger just from the B1G. Bastida would be a stud there. Feldman from OSU is a smaller HWT, right? Similar to Snyder. 

97KG is probably closer to a natural weight for Trumble. I could easily see him moving up to HWT and weighing ~240 if he wanted. He has the frame for it. 

Hillger was 255lbs at B1Gs.