Wrestleknownothing Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Or at least there should be. While we have all been warned ad nauseum, that past performance does not guarantee future results, you never hear future performance does not guarantee past results. Why is that? Clearly it is a conspiracy against wrestlers of an early age. Well, I am here to shatter that illusion at great personal risk to myself. Damn the torpedoes... In the freshman eligible eras there were 19 wrestlers who went X, 1, 1, 1. Of those 19 only 5, or 26.3%, filled in the X the right way, with the freshman win. In the non-freshman eligible eras there were 16 wrestlers who went N/A, 1, 1, 1. So without question 4.2 of them would have won it as freshmen had they been eligible because math. Since King Solomon don't live round here, which four are you picking? 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gantry Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 You have to take Uetake. Hodge seems like another no brainer. Not going to lie, don't know Caldwell, VanBebber, McDaniel, Hayes, Flood so they are out. McCready I heard a bunch about, so going with him. There's three Peerys, I'll go with dad and say Rex gets it done. So there's my unscientific breakdown - Uetake, Hodge, McCready and rex Peery. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortaJohn Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 (edited) Would only be able to answer this if we know what weight class they would've wrestled their Freshman year and how realistically can we assume they could have beaten everyone in that years field. Take Uetake. Let's say he wrestled 130 his Freshman. We would have to assume he'd beat returning champ Senior Mickey Martin who was voted OW. Edited December 11, 2023 by PortaJohn 1 I Don't Agree With What I Posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Simons for sure. 4x NAIA (4x OW)/3x NCAA (2x OW), 2x olympian including once during enrollment. So I get to pick only 4? Well then Uetake, Hodge, and Simons are occupying three of those spots on this hypothetical Mt. Rushmore. 4 i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted December 11, 2023 Author Share Posted December 11, 2023 38 minutes ago, bnwtwg said: Simons for sure. 4x NAIA (4x OW)/3x NCAA (2x OW), 2x olympian including once during enrollment. So I get to pick only 4? Well then Uetake, Hodge, and Simons are occupying three of those spots on this hypothetical Mt. Rushmore. Hypothetical? No, this is right there with death and taxes. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 Hodge, Simons, Roderick, Uetake. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gantry Posted December 11, 2023 Share Posted December 11, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, PortaJohn said: Would only be able to answer this if we know what weight class they would've wrestled their Freshman year and how realistically can we assume they could have beaten everyone in that years field. Take Uetake. Let's say he wrestled 130 his Freshman. We would have to assume he'd beat returning champ Senior Mickey Martin who was voted OW. It's a good point for sure, but despite the OW are you really going to take a senior year Mickey Martin over him as a freshman? Edited December 11, 2023 by Gantry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortaJohn Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 25 minutes ago, Gantry said: It's a good point for sure, but despite the OW are you really going to take a senior year Mickey Martin over him as a freshman? Honestly not going to even pretend like I know the answer to that hypothetical 2 1 I Don't Agree With What I Posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 2 hours ago, PortaJohn said: Honestly not going to even pretend like I know the answer to that hypothetical This is the internet. How dare you engage in civil discourse and provide transparency of an inability to determine a hypothetical from nearly 60 years ago. For shame! You do it like this: 2 hours ago, Gantry said: are you really going to take a senior year Mickey Martin over him as a freshman? Seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Maybe three times. He was transcendent. 1 2 i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgaveMaria Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 Yojo generation here and have to agree with Roderick: Yojo was the best. As Roderick said: I never saw him tested on the mat. Add in Yojo would get so frustrated at the team members when he was a Grad Assistant because they couldn't even keep up with his warm up exercises on the mat. But, we can speculate and discuss all we want. Four timers have the advantage of not losing the Freshman year. As for three timers who had four shots and didn't get their - after Yojo it is (for me) guesswork only. As good as everyone else has been I don't believe any of them match Uetake. ” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Bryant Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 Simons, Uetake and Hodge would be three of the four I'd select. Personal biases aside with Simons, he continues to be one of the most overlooked wrestling greats. The fan vote really missed the boat not including him on the 75th anniversary team but included numerous two-time champs. Competing in an era before the U.S. routinely sent wrestlers to Worlds also hurt him - in 1964, he didn't lose a bout at the Olympics (2-0-2) and didn't earn a medal. 5 Insert catchy tagline here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle26 Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 Agree with others that Uetake, Simons, and Hodge are definitely the top three. After that, it’s probably a tough call and I honestly don’t know enough about them to make the call. Any historians out there have insight on who should be the 4th guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 36 minutes ago, Eagle26 said: Agree with others that Uetake, Simons, and Hodge are definitely the top three. After that, it’s probably a tough call and I honestly don’t know enough about them to make the call. Any historians out there have insight on who should be the 4th guy? The Moose: All but 3 matches by pin, think he gets the job done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocraTease Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 But could any of these guys have beaten Milo of Croton? Milo would have certainly won the feats of strength competition during the upcoming "Festivus for the Rest of Us" celebrations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Croton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 20 minutes ago, SocraTease said: But could any of these guys have beaten Milo of Croton? Milo would have certainly won the feats of strength competition during the upcoming "Festivus for the Rest of Us" celebrations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_of_Croton Nothing in his wiki page suggests that he could deadlift 665lbs so ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, ionel said: The Moose: All but 3 matches by pin, think he gets the job done. I will admit though, since it appears Wkn doesn't know, don't believe there was a tournament McCready's freshman year so difficult 4x. Report was he beat the OSU heavy in 26 so they herded The Moose across the boarder down to the Oklahoma range and he won the first tournament (via pin of course) in 28. Edited December 13, 2023 by ionel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimpeltf Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 11 hours ago, ionel said: The Moose: All but 3 matches by pin, think he gets the job done. This was his freshman picture, BTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted December 13, 2023 Author Share Posted December 13, 2023 Maybe this will help some of the decision makers. The National Wrestling Hall of Fame has wonderful bios for all of these guys. I encourage you all to read them. But more than that I encourage you all to contribute to the NWHOF. To make it easy here is the link. Bios for The Sixteen Conrad Caldwell https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/47 Dan Hodge https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/6 Earl McCready https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/21 Ed Peery https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/42 Gray Simons https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/30 Hugh Peery https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/43 Jack Van Bebber https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/14 Joe McDaniel vhttps://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/35 Larry Hayes https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/1155 Mike Caruso https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/82 Myron Roderick https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/12 Rex Peery https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/11 Ross Flood https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/26 Stanley Henson https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/27 Wayne Martin https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/1976 Yojiro Uetake https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/41 My two favorite new tidbits I learned from these: Conrad Caldwell once won matches at three consecutive weights (174, 191, heavyweight) in a duel meat against UCLA, and Wayne Martin taught hand to hand combat classes for the Tulsa Police Department. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle26 Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 On 12/13/2023 at 11:54 AM, Wrestleknownothing said: Maybe this will help some of the decision makers. The National Wrestling Hall of Fame has wonderful bios for all of these guys. I encourage you all to read them. But more than that I encourage you all to contribute to the NWHOF. To make it easy here is the link. Bios for The Sixteen Conrad Caldwell https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/47 Dan Hodge https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/6 Earl McCready https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/21 Ed Peery https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/42 Gray Simons https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/30 Hugh Peery https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/43 Jack Van Bebber https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/14 Joe McDaniel vhttps://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/35 Larry Hayes https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/1155 Mike Caruso https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/82 Myron Roderick https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/12 Rex Peery https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/11 Ross Flood https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/26 Stanley Henson https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/27 Wayne Martin https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/1976 Yojiro Uetake https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/41 My two favorite new tidbits I learned from these: Conrad Caldwell once won matches at three consecutive weights (174, 191, heavyweight) in a duel meat against UCLA, and Wayne Martin taught hand to hand combat classes for the Tulsa Police Department. It was cool reading through all those. Thanks for sharing. After reading that, I think I’m going to have to modify my list. As amazing as Gray Simons was, I didn’t realize he took two losses as a freshman. I’d still say he’s a “better wrestler” than most on the list but if we are looking at simply most likely to win a title as a freshman, I don’t think we should have him top 4. I’d go with Uetake, Hodge, McCready, and Rex Peery as the 4th… again probably a tough call there, but him and his sons going 9/9 is just crazy so I think he would’ve won as a freshman too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Bryant Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 Gray lost up a weight to the returning NCAA champion … as a true freshman and to the Syracuse assistant coach, recently passed Ed Carlin. No losses to anyone he would have seen at NCAAs. 3 Insert catchy tagline here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle26 Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 6 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said: Gray lost up a weight to the returning NCAA champion … as a true freshman and to the Syracuse assistant coach, recently passed Ed Carlin. No losses to anyone he would have seen at NCAAs. I guess I have to educate myself better before I post! Thanks for adding that context. Now I have to change it back to add Gray back in . Or better yet, maybe we say this group defies the odds and has 5 win as freshmen. Is that allowed @Wrestleknownothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 24 minutes ago, Eagle26 said: It was cool reading through all those. Thanks for sharing. After reading that, I think I’m going to have to modify my list. As amazing as Gray Simons was, I didn’t realize he took two losses as a freshman. I’d still say he’s a “better wrestler” than most on the list but if we are looking at simply most likely to win a title as a freshman, I don’t think we should have him top 4. I’d go with Uetake, Hodge, McCready, and Rex Peery as the 4th… again probably a tough call there, but him and his sons going 9/9 is just crazy so I think he would’ve won as a freshman too. You know who else lost twice his freshman year? Kyle Dake, Logan Steiber, and Carter Starocci. i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted December 14, 2023 Author Share Posted December 14, 2023 8 minutes ago, Eagle26 said: I guess I have to educate myself better before I post! Thanks for adding that context. Now I have to change it back to add Gray back in . Or better yet, maybe we say this group defies the odds and has 5 win as freshmen. Is that allowed @Wrestleknownothing? 4.2 means a 20% chance of 5 (sorta). I checked with the judge and he will allow it. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 18 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: The point is never trust the headline number, never believe the rumored number, and never trust someone else to do the math for you. 3 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: 4.2 means a 20% chance of 5 (sorta). I checked with the judge and he will allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted December 14, 2023 Author Share Posted December 14, 2023 1 minute ago, ionel said: exactly figures never lie, but liars always figure Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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