D2 and D3 Athletes competing D1

[Pennsyrules]

I've always been baffled as to why D2 and D3 guys don't wrestle in more opens where there are D1 Guys?  It rarely happens but why wouldn't you want to challenge yourself against this level as a measuring stick?  There are plenty of opens in the Northeast where you can see how you stack up.  I know Cortland has competed in the Binghamton open but rarely do you see this and I'm not sure why?

[Jason Bryant]

I don't mean for this to sound snarky, but a lot of these folks chose Division II and Division III for a reason. They like wrestling, they enjoy competing, but while there are serious wrestlers at that level, not everyone's going to want to go out there and compare themselves to a level of wrestling they chose not to compete in. 

How do we know these guys aren't proving themselves just trying to break the starting lineup at these smaller places? I was announcing the St. Cloud State intrasquad last week and I interviewed the winners afterwards and asked a few what their season goals were - the ones I asked that question to all said their first goal was to just start. 

Division II and Division III have different rules in terms of access to their coaching staffs, offseason training, etc. 

Also, since those matches don't count for D1 athletes in the qualification system we currently have (they do count for overall and career records), a number of D1 coaches don't want too many non-D1 athletes in a field. 

[nick]

The NAIA team I was on had a dual meet with IU and SIUE, along with going to the Michigan State Open

Let me tell you there was a reason we were at an NAIA school and not going D1, the above highlighted those reasons..... not fun

[Alces Alces Gigas]

20 years ago teams like NDSU, UNK, and UCO and others would make the trip to Vegas and have kids place.    Seems lime.we.don't see much of that anymore due to the reasons posted above 

[Idaho]

It's been quite a long time since we saw the D2 champs in the D1 tournament.... I think there will be some guys that will make some noise from time to time against D1 competition, but it's an exception. There was a time when the Portland States of the world with Dan Russsell and Co. could definitely compete with D1 competition. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

18 minutes ago, Idaho said:

It's been quite a long time since we saw the D2 champs in the D1 tournament.... I think there will be some guys that will make some noise from time to time against D1 competition, but it's an exception. There was a time when the Portland States of the world with Dan Russsell and Co. could definitely compete with D1 competition. 

There was a lot going on there: Joe Russell's injury keeping Dan at home, the ability to still wrestle in D1 for D2 guys, a very strong local wrestling culture and a nearby university... a perfect storm.

It is unlikely we would see anything similar today.

[Idaho]

38 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

There was a lot going on there: Joe Russell's injury keeping Dan at home, the ability to still wrestle in D1 for D2 guys, a very strong local wrestling culture and a nearby university... a perfect storm.

It is unlikely we would see anything similar today.

100% agree.... If you get a chance, Dan Russel's book is a good read.  Great guys. I agree, we won't see D2 teams like that able to compete against D1 programs like they did back then. As a side note,  Oregon HS wrestling at that time was top notch - so many studs coming out of there from about 85-95.  Portland State was a D2 monster at the time. Western Oregon and Southern Oregon were very good NAIA schools, you had Clackamas and of course Oregon and Oregon State just down the road. There were many other programs as well, but the wrestling in Oregon was phenomenal during that time. 

 

[Smsu150]

5 hours ago, Idaho said:

It's been quite a long time since we saw the D2 champs in the D1 tournament.... I think there will be some guys that will make some noise from time to time against D1 competition, but it's an exception. There was a time when the Portland States of the world with Dan Russsell and Co. could definitely compete with D1 competition. 

For many years SIU-E wrestlers did very well at the NCAA D1 tournament.  Tim Wright, Allan Grammer, Al Sears, Booker Benford a few names that come to mind.

 

[fishbane]

16 hours ago, Pennsyrules said:

I know Cortland has competed in the Binghamton open but rarely do you see this and I'm not sure why?

I didn't think Binghamton held the Bearcat Open this year.  If it didn't happen then I think that means there are no collegiate opens either in NY or any of the New England States.  So they aren't all that accessible in the north east.

That said there are a ton of opens in the mid Atlantic and Midwest.  Many D3 schools even host them (Messiah, Wilkes, John Carroll, Luther, Wisconsin Stevens Point, Augsburg, Concordia, Wisconsin Eau-Claire, Averett, Grand View, Nebraska-Kearny, Lake Erie, Case Western)  If any D3 schools hosts and open some D1 wrestlers will attend - mainly redshirts looking for matches.  Conversely since there aren't redshirts looking matches in D3 (athletes are not permitted to even practice with the team in D3) they don't have individual wrestlers looking for them and the D1 coaches hosting them don't really try to get lower division teams.

I'd say most lower division teams have at least one or two dates where they will encounter D1 redshirts or backups, but few put opens hosted by D1 schools on the calendar. A few do.  John Carroll (D3) attended the Clarion Open as a team this year and did not do well.  Most of their wrestlers went 0-2, though they aren't a top D3 team (unranked).  TCNJ has the Princeton Open on their schedule and they are ranked #15 in D3.  That should be more interesting.  A D3 team needs to be pretty good (top 20? Top 10?) for a decent portion of the team to get something out of going to an early season D1 Open.

For the exceptional individual on a lower division team testing yourself at opens can be hit or miss.  You might go and the field could be relatively weak.  Guys still skip early season events or default out of the later rounds.   No one will really care if you win the Shorty Hitchcock Open unless you beat someone notable.  The D2/D3/NAIA national title will be a bigger deal.  You really have to go to one of the big holiday tournaments to see top competition and those are more invitational than opens. Often lower division champs get invites to Midlands.  I don't think the Scuffle or Soldier Salute do that.  The older Lackman brother (the one that won D3 NCAAs) wrestled at the Midlands last year and placed 6th.  Even then the only match he was paired against a D1 AA was in the wrestle backs against Peyton Hall and Hall med forfeited and didn't wrestle.  Lackman wasn't the only lower division wrestler at Midlands last year.  

[feet2back]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:31 AM, Alces Alces Gigas said:

20 years ago teams like NDSU, UNK, and UCO and others would make the trip to Vegas and have kids place.    Seems lime.we.don't see much of that anymore due to the reasons posted above 

Agree...I remember 40 years ago when D3 teams in NJ had multiple D1 AA and D1 Champions. Really wish they still invited D2 and D3 Champs to NCAA Tournament 

[Alces Alces Gigas]

To be a D1 caliber recruit (athletic wise) the level of commitment needed is pretty intense and there are very few diamonds in the rough anymore. Kids that go D2-3 or NAIA or JUCO don't very often blossom into D1 caliber  studs like they did in the past.  Once in a while a D1 type.athlete might not have the academic chops to pass the clearing house so they end up at D-3 or NAIA but that is rare anymore

[PencilNeck]

Let's not forget that comparing D3 studs to D1 studs is obviously going to be lopsided, but there are plenty of crappy D1 teams out there in basically every NCAA sport.

[Alces Alces Gigas]

Interesting side note.     The season where D2 UNO stud Hwt Les Sigman won the Midlands, I asked Cole Conrad (Les  beat Cole that year) how Sigman would so at D1 NCAAs and his answer was most likely not as good.as the Midlands as the D1 teams would have film on him and would be prepared.   

Edited November 14, 2023 by Alces Alces Gigas

[Jason Bryant]

1 hour ago, feet2back said:

Agree...I remember 40 years ago when D3 teams in NJ had multiple D1 AA and D1 Champions. Really wish they still invited D2 and D3 Champs to NCAA Tournament 

Montclair State was the only D3 in NJ with multiple placewinners.
Happened in 1975, 1978, 1985 and they had two AA's in both 1988 and 1989.

TCNJ (Trenton State) had one in 1981.

D2 and D3 champs/finalists qualifying for D1's was only a thing from 1974-1991.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

Montclair State was the only D3 in NJ with multiple placewinners.
Happened in 1975, 1978, 1985 and they had two AA's in both 1988 and 1989.

TCNJ (Trenton State) had one in 1981.

D2 and D3 champs/finalists qualifying for D1's was only a thing from 1974-1991.

Some wildcards too? (or maybe if a guy had been grandfathered in and placed lower than top 2, he would be eligible?)

Edited November 14, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[feet2back]

3 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

Montclair State was the only D3 in NJ with multiple placewinners.
Happened in 1975, 1978, 1985 and they had two AA's in both 1988 and 1989.

TCNJ (Trenton State) had one in 1981.

D2 and D3 champs/finalists qualifying for D1's was only a thing from 1974-1991.

Yes but lets not forget 2 NCAA D1 Champions from that group

[gimpeltf]

2 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Montclair State was the only D3 in NJ with multiple placewinners.
Happened in 1975, 1978, 1985 and they had two AA's in both 1988 and 1989.

TCNJ (Trenton State) had one in 1981.

D2 and D3 champs/finalists qualifying for D1's was only a thing from 1974-1991.

Also Gene Barber 2nd '73

[Jason Bryant]

Also Gene Barber 2nd '73

That was still the college division. 73-74 was the first year of the three division format. I wasn’t there yet …

[AOCStallsLikeAMug]

On 11/12/2023 at 10:11 PM, Jason Bryant said:

I don't mean for this to sound snarky, but a lot of these folks chose Division II and Division III for a reason. They like wrestling, they enjoy competing, but while there are serious wrestlers at that level, not everyone's going to want to go out there and compare themselves to a level of wrestling they chose not to compete in. 

How do we know these guys aren't proving themselves just trying to break the starting lineup at these smaller places? I was announcing the St. Cloud State intrasquad last week and I interviewed the winners afterwards and asked a few what their season goals were - the ones I asked that question to all said their first goal was to just start. 

Division II and Division III have different rules in terms of access to their coaching staffs, offseason training, etc. 

Also, since those matches don't count for D1 athletes in the qualification system we currently have (they do count for overall and career records), a number of D1 coaches don't want too many non-D1 athletes in a field. 

Says doesn’t want to sound snarky, proceeds to snark the snuff out of his comment. Typical

[Jason Bryant]

Says doesn’t want to sound snarky, proceeds to snark the snuff out of his comment. Typical

Tone is conversational with an attempt to be informative. If you want to read this with a vitriolic style, that’s not on me.

[Threadkilla]

D2 Clarion in 1973 had 3 D1 champs in Rohn, Schalles and Simpson.  I believe Clarion would have had a team trophy but division 2 was not able to score in division 1. 

[Jason Bryant]

1 hour ago, Threadkilla said:

D2 Clarion in 1973 had 3 D1 champs in Rohn, Schalles and Simpson.  I believe Clarion would have had a team trophy but division 2 was not able to score in division 1. 

This is where there's a bit of an odd distinction.

In 1973, there was no Division 2 yet. That began in the 1973-74 season. Clarion was still in the College Division in 1973, which we've grouped the Division II history with that era, which isn't wholly accurate. The College Division was split, with "University" inheriting the moniker Division 1, while D2 and D3 went their respective directions. 

 

[Threadkilla]

11 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

This is where there's a bit of an odd distinction.

In 1973, there was no Division 2 yet. That began in the 1973-74 season. Clarion was still in the College Division in 1973, which we've grouped the Division II history with that era, which isn't wholly accurate. The College Division was split, with "University" inheriting the moniker Division 1, while D2 and D3 went their respective directions. 

 

What was the differece between the Collegiate and University divisions?  Was it funding or number of scholorships etc?

[Jason Bryant]

20 minutes ago, Threadkilla said:

What was the differece between the Collegiate and University divisions?  Was it funding or number of scholorships etc?

The best I can figure is the University Division was actual universities and large public schools and the Ivies, where the College Division was the smaller private schools and smaller public "D3" sized schools. 

Since the NCAA tournament was "open" until 1968. The formation of the College Division came in 1963, there's a lot of scattering between who was going where. It's also indicative of the true wild west rulesets at the time - where you'd have a team pop up one year, then gone for a couple, then back again for a few. 

So that's a long way of saying I don't know for sure. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jason Bryant

[fishbane]

Before being absorbed into Flowresting, Rev Wrestling had college rankings that were "all division."  They were mostly identical to just regular D1 rankings, but at most 5 or so wresters from lower divisions would be featured sometimes none at all.  285 was the weight with the most lower division wrestlers.  There were several years 2004-2008 or so where a number of lower division wrestlers were featured (Les Sigman, Tervel Dlagnev, Ryan Allen, Blake Gillis).

On 11/14/2023 at 4:31 PM, Alces Alces Gigas said:

Interesting side note.     The season where D2 UNO stud Hwt Les Sigman won the Midlands, I asked Cole Conrad (Les  beat Cole that year) how Sigman would so at D1 NCAAs and his answer was most likely not as good.as the Midlands as the D1 teams would have film on him and would be prepared.   

That is probably true in some cases, but perhaps not for Sigman and Dlagnev who both won Midlands wrestling at D2 schools.  They both later made world teams wrestling against all the D1 heavies