Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said: I have expounded on the un-serious way they set up the seeding points. Have all the tournaments in the most difficult to get to time zones for the western hemisphere. If they show, they have two choices: get there a week early, ala the world championships, to acclimate and optimize performance (and spend loads of money - see point 2); get there just in time, and feel like crap, and maybe get hurt. Have the points accumulate individually so that a deep country, like the US, will have to spend a crazy amount sending multiple wrestlers, but PR can just send the one that they know is their rep. Make it a perfect attendance award rather than merit, because attendance lines their pockets, not achievement. It would be nice to get a better system, but this is what we have and we have to deal with it. David Taylor pretty much knows that he is good enough where ranking tourneys don't matter anymore. Nick Lee isn't quite at that level, so he needs to take a shot at some ranking events if he is serious about this Olympic medal thing. And I think he did attend at least one and was outperformed by Henderson if I'm not mistaken. Edited November 7, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: It would be nice to get a better system, but this is what we have and we have to deal with it. David Taylor pretty much knows that he is good enough where ranking tourneys don't matter anymore. Nick Lee isn't quite at that level, so he needs to take a shot at some ranking events if he is serious about this Olympic medal thing. And I think he did attend at least one and was outperformed by Henderson if I'm not mistaken. He was outperformed by Henderson AND McKenna. But he teched Rivera. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lu1979 Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 4 hours ago, Gus said: Here is the list of placers from 2018 - present 2018: Otoguro, Bajrang, Valdes/Chakaev 2019: Rashidov, Niyazbekov, Muszukajev/Bajrang 2021: Shakhiev, Yazdani, Osmonov/Tulga 2022: Amouzad, Yianni, Muszukajev/Bajrang 2023: Muszukajev, Riveria, Mamedov/Tevanyan No repeat champions. Only two wrestlers that have placed multiple times: Muszukajev and Bajrang. There is a repeat champion if you include the 2020 Olympics which took place in 2021. Otoguro won those with Aliev Silver and Rashidov and Barang with bronze. That tournament is more indicative of the worlds best than the 2021 WC as many of the top guys did not attend that. 5 of the top 6 countries placing at the Olympics sent a different rep to the 2021 WC - the 6th Hungary did not send Musakaev or anyone else. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 58 minutes ago, lu1979 said: There is a repeat champion if you include the 2020 Olympics which took place in 2021. Otoguro won those with Aliev Silver and Rashidov and Barang with bronze. That tournament is more indicative of the worlds best than the 2021 WC as many of the top guys did not attend that. 5 of the top 6 countries placing at the Olympics sent a different rep to the 2021 WC - the 6th Hungary did not send Musakaev or anyone else. Updated with Olympic results added from 2020 (really 2021). Conclusion: 65 kg is the only weight without a champion winning back-to-back years. 65kg also has the lowest number of wrestlers placing multiple times (4). Of the wrestlers that have placed multiple times, 65kg also has the lowest number of total medals (10) from the multiple time placers. Thus, we can deduce that 65kg has the most parity of all the Olympic weights. 57kg 2018: Uguev, Sanayev, Takahashi/Atli 2019: Uguev, Atli, Dahiya/Sanyev 2020: Uguev, Kumar, Sanayev/Gilman 2021: Gilman, Sarlak, Tsiutryn/Lehr 2022: Abakarov, Gilman, Zanabazar/Micic 2023: Micic, Higuchi, Abakarov/Harutyunyan We have one three-peat champion in Uguev (3 gold). We have 5 others that placed multiple times in Sanayev (1 silver, 2 bronze), Atli (1 silver, 1 bronze), Gilman (1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze), Abakarov ( 1 gold, 1 bronze), Micic (1 gold, 1 bronze). 65kg 2018: Otoguro, Bajrang, Valdes/Chakaev 2019: Rashidov, Niyazbekov, Muszukajev/Bajrang 2020: Otoguro, Aliyev, Rashidov/Bajrang 2021: Shakhiev, Yazdani, Osmonov/Tulga 2022: Amouzad, Yianni, Muszukajev/Bajrang 2023: Muszukajev, Riveria, Mamedov/Tevanyan No repeat champions but Otoguro won two titles (2 gold). 3 other wrestlers that have placed multiple times: Muszukajev (1 gold, 2 bronze), Rashidov (1 gold, 1 bronze) and Bajrang (3 Bronze). 74kg 2018: Sidakov, Kentchadze, Burroughs/Abdurakhmonov 2019: Sidakov, Chamizo, Kaisanov/Burroughs 2020:Sidakov, Kadzimahamedau, Dake/Abdurakhmonov 2021: Dake, Salkazanov, Bizhoev/Eryilmaz 2022: Dake, Salkazanov, Enami/Demirtas 2023: Sidakov, Dake, Takatani/Tsabolov We had 1 guy three-peat: Sidakov (4 gold) and 1 repeat: Dake (2 gold, 1 silver, 1 Bronze) as champions. Additionally, we had 3 others place multiple times in Burroughs (2 bronze), Abdurakhmonov (2 bronze) and Salkazanov (2 silver). 86kg 2018: DT, Erdin, Friev/Yazdani 2019: Yazdani, Punia, Naifonov/Reichmuth 2020: DT, Yazdani, Naifonov/Amine 2021: Yazdani, DT, Abakarov/Naifonov 2022: DT, Yazdani, Dauletbekov/Makojev 2023: DT, Yazdani, Dauletbekov/Amine We had 2 guys repeat as champs in Yazdani (2 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze) and DT (3 gold, 1 silver). 3 others place multiple times in Naifonov (3 bronze), Amine (2 bronze) & Dauletbekov (2 bronze). 97kg 2018: Sadulaev, Snyder, Odikadze/Conyedo 2019: Sadulaev, Sharifov, Nurov/Snyder 2020: Sadulaev, Snyder, Salas/Conyedo 2021: Sadulaev, Snyder, Goleij/Zakariiev 2022: Snyder, Tsakulov, Magomedov/Matcharashvili 2023: Tazhudinov, Magodedov, Matcharashvili/Synder We have one four-peat champion in Sadulaev. 4 others placed multiple times in Snyder (1 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze), Magomedov (1 silver, 1 bronze), Matcharachvili (2 bronze), Conyedo (2 bronze). 125kg 2018: Petriashvili, Deng, Hadi/Gwiazdowski 2019: Petriashvili, Akgul, Deng/Khotsianivski 2020: Steveson, Petriashvili, Zare/Akgul 2021: Zare, Petriashvili, Lkhagvagerel/Akgul 2022: Akgul, Lkhagvagerel, Petriashvili/Zare 2023: Zare, Petriashvili, Akgul/Parris We have one repeat champ in Petriashvili (2 gold, 3 silver, 1 bronze) and one with multiple titles with years between in Zare (2 gold, 2 bronze). 3 others placed multiple times in Deng (1 silver, 1 bronze), Akgul (1 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze) & Lkhagvegerel (1 silver, 1 bronze). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 16 minutes ago, Gus said: Updated with Olympic results added from 2020 (really 2021). Conclusion: 65 kg is the only weight without a champion winning back-to-back years. 65kg also has the lowest number of wrestlers placing multiple times (4). Of the wrestlers that have placed multiple times, 65kg also has the lowest number of total medals (10) from the multiple time placers. Thus, we can deduce that 65kg has the most parity of all the Olympic weights. 57kg 2018: Uguev, Sanayev, Takahashi/Atli 2019: Uguev, Atli, Dahiya/Sanyev 2020: Uguev, Kumar, Sanayev/Gilman 2021: Gilman, Sarlak, Tsiutryn/Lehr 2022: Abakarov, Gilman, Zanabazar/Micic 2023: Micic, Higuchi, Abakarov/Harutyunyan We have one three-peat champion in Uguev (3 gold). We have 5 others that placed multiple times in Sanayev (1 silver, 2 bronze), Atli (1 silver, 1 bronze), Gilman (1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze), Abakarov ( 1 gold, 1 bronze), Micic (1 gold, 1 bronze). 65kg 2018: Otoguro, Bajrang, Valdes/Chakaev 2019: Rashidov, Niyazbekov, Muszukajev/Bajrang 2020: Otoguro, Aliyev, Rashidov/Bajrang 2021: Shakhiev, Yazdani, Osmonov/Tulga 2022: Amouzad, Yianni, Muszukajev/Bajrang 2023: Muszukajev, Riveria, Mamedov/Tevanyan No repeat champions but Otoguro won two titles (2 gold). 3 other wrestlers that have placed multiple times: Muszukajev (1 gold, 2 bronze), Rashidov (1 gold, 1 bronze) and Bajrang (3 Bronze). 74kg 2018: Sidakov, Kentchadze, Burroughs/Abdurakhmonov 2019: Sidakov, Chamizo, Kaisanov/Burroughs 2020:Sidakov, Kadzimahamedau, Dake/Abdurakhmonov 2021: Dake, Salkazanov, Bizhoev/Eryilmaz 2022: Dake, Salkazanov, Enami/Demirtas 2023: Sidakov, Dake, Takatani/Tsabolov We had 1 guy three-peat: Sidakov (4 gold) and 1 repeat: Dake (2 gold, 1 silver, 1 Bronze) as champions. Additionally, we had 3 others place multiple times in Burroughs (2 bronze), Abdurakhmonov (2 bronze) and Salkazanov (2 silver). 86kg 2018: DT, Erdin, Friev/Yazdani 2019: Yazdani, Punia, Naifonov/Reichmuth 2020: DT, Yazdani, Naifonov/Amine 2021: Yazdani, DT, Abakarov/Naifonov 2022: DT, Yazdani, Dauletbekov/Makojev 2023: DT, Yazdani, Dauletbekov/Amine We had 2 guys repeat as champs in Yazdani (2 gold, 2 silver, 1 bronze) and DT (3 gold, 1 silver). 3 others place multiple times in Naifonov (3 bronze), Amine (2 bronze) & Dauletbekov (2 bronze). 97kg 2018: Sadulaev, Snyder, Odikadze/Conyedo 2019: Sadulaev, Sharifov, Nurov/Snyder 2020: Sadulaev, Snyder, Salas/Conyedo 2021: Sadulaev, Snyder, Goleij/Zakariiev 2022: Snyder, Tsakulov, Magomedov/Matcharashvili 2023: Tazhudinov, Magodedov, Matcharashvili/Synder We have one four-peat champion in Sadulaev. 4 others placed multiple times in Snyder (1 gold, 3 silver, 2 bronze), Magomedov (1 silver, 1 bronze), Matcharachvili (2 bronze), Conyedo (2 bronze). 125kg 2018: Petriashvili, Deng, Hadi/Gwiazdowski 2019: Petriashvili, Akgul, Deng/Khotsianivski 2020: Steveson, Petriashvili, Zare/Akgul 2021: Zare, Petriashvili, Lkhagvagerel/Akgul 2022: Akgul, Lkhagvagerel, Petriashvili/Zare 2023: Zare, Petriashvili, Akgul/Parris We have one repeat champ in Petriashvili (2 gold, 3 silver, 1 bronze) and one with multiple titles with years between in Zare (2 gold, 2 bronze). 3 others placed multiple times in Deng (1 silver, 1 bronze), Akgul (1 gold, 1 silver, 3 bronze) & Lkhagvegerel (1 silver, 1 bronze). good stuff Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 There is quite good parity until the top 3 weights. Those guys are monsters. mspart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 Not sure how a lack of repeat medalists is definite proof that the weight class is harder. Interesting stats but it is just as easy to say it is a softer weight class because there has been any dominant generational talents who can win year after year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le duke Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 57 and 65 are just wild, every year. So much parity. That said, if _______ (insert American here) was on Rivera’s side of the bracket this year, Yianni/Lee/McKenna likely make it to a medal match, at the very least.86 is boring. Two horse race with bracket position determine whether Amine, whichever Russian and some other randoms make it to a Bronze match. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 11 hours ago, Jim L said: Not sure how a lack of repeat medalists is definite proof that the weight class is harder. Interesting stats but it is just as easy to say it is a softer weight class because there has been any dominant generational talents who can win year after year. Exactly. How many of those guys had success in other weights? We have guys who wouldn't be top 4 in the US medal at this weight. When this happens at 86, we say "weak weight." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: Exactly. How many of those guys had success in other weights? We have guys who wouldn't be top 4 in the US medal at this weight. When this happens at 86, we say "weak weight." Some guys that have had success at other weights that have competed at 65kg: Zain Retherford (65kg no medals, 70kg 1 gold, 1 silver), Aliyev (65kg 1 silver, 61kg 3 gold, 57kg 1 bronze), Yazdani (65kg 1 silver, 70kg 1 silver), Niyazbekov (65kg 1 silver, 55kg 1 bronze), Chakaev (65kg 1 bronze, 61kg bronze), Rashidov (65kg 1 gold, 61 kg 2 silver), Chamizo (65kg 1 bronze, 1 70kg gold, 1 74kg silver), James Green (65kg no medals, 70kg 1 silver, 1 bronze), Gadzhiev (65kg 1 silver, 70kg 1 gold, 1 bronze), Iakobishvili (65kg 1 gold, 70kg 3 bronze), Logan Stieber (65kg no medals, 61kg 1 gold). It is a mixed bag as to whether they performed better or worse at 65kg compared to other weights. That being said, many of athletes that have competed at 65kg have had success at other weights. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 3 minutes ago, Gus said: Some guys that have had success at other weights that have competed at 65kg: Zain Retherford (65kg no medals, 70kg 1 gold, 1 silver), Aliyev (65kg 1 silver, 61kg 3 gold, 57kg 1 bronze), Yazdani (65kg 1 silver, 70kg 1 silver), Niyazbekov (65kg 1 silver, 55kg 1 bronze), Chakaev (65kg 1 bronze, 61kg bronze), Rashidov (65kg 1 gold, 61 kg 2 silver), Chamizo (65kg 1 bronze, 1 70kg gold, 1 74kg silver), James Green (65kg no medals, 70kg 1 silver, 1 bronze), Gadzhiev (65kg 1 silver, 70kg 1 gold, 1 bronze), Iakobishvili (65kg 1 gold, 70kg 3 bronze), Logan Stieber (65kg no medals, 61kg 1 gold). It is a mixed bag as to whether they performed better or worse at 65kg compared to other weights. That being said, many of athletes that have competed at 65kg have had success at other weights. Thanks, but somewhat unfair because a number of those wrestlers haven't been able to compete in Worlds at 65. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Posted November 8, 2023 Share Posted November 8, 2023 20 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: Thanks, but somewhat unfair because a number of those wrestlers haven't been able to compete in Worlds at 65. I think just James Green was unable to compete at 65kg due to not making the USA team. Stieber and Zain both made a US Team at 65kg. Who else are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husker_Du Posted November 12, 2023 Share Posted November 12, 2023 On 11/7/2023 at 5:07 PM, Jim L said: Not sure how a lack of repeat medalists is definite proof that the weight class is harder. Interesting stats but it is just as easy to say it is a softer weight class because there has been any dominant generational talents who can win year after year. i'll tell you how... because outside of worlds, 65kg guy lose more often. there's simply (and demonstrable) more guys that have the ability to beat the best. that's the definition of 'deeper'. TBD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamboat_charlie Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 On 11/12/2023 at 6:44 AM, Husker_Du said: i'll tell you how... because outside of worlds, 65kg guy lose more often. there's simply (and demonstrable) more guys that have the ability to beat the best. that's the definition of 'deeper'. I think that's the definition of parity, not depth. Eventually another Fadzaev will come along and run the weight for half a decade, and it won't mean there's less depth. Just less parity. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 I don't know if he's the most overhyped US wrestler ever, but he's certainly the most overhyped 4 time NCAA champ world silver medalist 23 year old american wrestler ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted November 13, 2023 Share Posted November 13, 2023 25 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said: I don't know if he's the most overhyped US wrestler ever, but he's certainly the most overhyped 4 time NCAA champ world silver medalist 23 year old american wrestler ever. Still better than the most overhyped 4x NCAA champ and world champ* American wrestler ever. Still third-best 4x NCAA champ behind Cael and Dake, definitively ahead of Smith, currently ahead of Starocci and Brooks assuming they pull it off. I give Brooks a 4x without an asterisk because Zahid hit the slopes prior to covid and Brooks would have likely won his frosh year in his absence. Not bad company. i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 3 hours ago, bnwtwg said: Still better than the most overhyped 4x NCAA champ and world champ* American wrestler ever. Still third-best 4x NCAA champ behind Cael and Dake, definitively ahead of Smith, currently ahead of Starocci and Brooks assuming they pull it off. I give Brooks a 4x without an asterisk because Zahid hit the slopes prior to covid and Brooks would have likely won his frosh year in his absence. Not bad company. I have Diakomihalis fifth best 4xer behind Sanderson, Steiber, Dake, and Smith if only college careers are considered. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: I have Diakomihalis fifth best 4xer behind Sanderson, Steiber, Dake, and Smith if only college careers are considered. Yep. Monday, Schultz, etc. weren't exactly pushovers. Edited November 14, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 11 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: I have Diakomihalis fifth best 4xer behind Sanderson, Steiber, Dake, and Smith if only college careers are considered. 16 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: Yep. Monday, Schultz, etc. weren't exactly pushovers. This is about 4x NCAA champs at the freestyle world level. Your heresey cannot be allowed to persist on the international board and must be cast out down to the depths of the College Forum! 1 i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinnacle Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 On 11/4/2023 at 11:20 PM, Husker_Du said: i think part of it is that he lost to domestic contemporaries, not just savvy vets wrestling FS full time. no one expected him to lose to Nick Lee 3xs. another thing is, i think, he's been a superstar for so long people forget how young he is - 1 year removed from college (and already has a SR medal). he's revered. and those kinds of stars often have unreasonable expectations put upon them (spencer lee). anyone that thinks he's 'overhyped' probably have themselves to blame. no one is going unscathed at 65kg over a multi-year period. And lost to them while being hyped as "the" guy at the weight. I think that is what prompted the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestle87 Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 How much of this is due to guys, teams, and countries only rolling out the secret recipe best guys for the olympics in many cases and just taking a flyer on worlds completely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elevator Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 On 11/4/2023 at 10:46 AM, Antitroll2828 said: The guy has been hyped as a freestyle savior since his freshman year , despite losing to 4 different us peers in that time frame and I’m a douchebag for asking a question about the hype ?Maybe the only Dbag on this thread is you It is a credit to USA wrestling and our system that there are so many U.S. guys who are so competitive. Yianni's "hype" has been appropriate - he can beat anyone at any time even if he does not always do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 Agree to an extent. It is a credit to the US system to bring about such a rapid change in the caliber of our wrestlers. The 1990s was ok. Usually we had a medallist at WC and Oly. 2000s not so much. 2010-2023 except for the first couple of years we have always had a medallist. And recently more than one each year. Our program has been getting better and better. It was Burroughs, then Snyder, then Cox, then Dake and Taylor, and then Gilman. This year we have 7 medals out of 10 weights with 3 gold, 1 silver, and 3 Bronze. That's pretty darn impressive. And in the Oly weights, 1 Gold, 1 Silver, and 2 Bronze for 4 out of 6 weights with a medallist. And not only that, but mostly the weights are deep here in the US. I guess we'll see how deep when 2025 comes around. That's assuming not much changes for 2024 Oly team. 57 and 65 are who knows who will win those, but I think it is pretty clear for the other 4 weights. mspart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 3 hours ago, mspart said: Dake and Taylor, and then Gilman. What if I told you Cox medaled a year before Gilman who medaled another year before Dake or Taylor got their first medal 1 i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 20 hours ago, mspart said: It was Burroughs, then Snyder, then Cox, then Dake and Taylor, and then Gilman. 17 hours ago, bnwtwg said: What if I told you Cox medaled a year before Gilman who medaled another year before Dake or Taylor got their first medal You are right. That's why I listed Cox before Dake, Taylor and Gilman. Not sure what you are trying to say here. mspart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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