3 point takedowns but 2 point reversals

[Wrestleknownothing]

35 minutes ago, Jim L said:

IMO, criteria works in FS because the push out makes it easier to score and eliminate the working out of bounds strategy that happens so often at the end of folkstyle matches

Counterpoint. The escape is easier than the push out. It certainly occurs more often, I believe.

So now the reason for criteria is MORE needed in folkstyle than freestyle.

Let the criteria wash over you.

45 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Clearly you are a wrestlingknownothing and have no respect for the leguons of geriatric wrestling fans you just sent into cardiac arrest but proposing criteria

 

I wish I could argue with you, but.....

[neutral]

5 hours ago, Jim L said:

Calling more stealing as a way to improve wrestling just won't work. In a close hard fought match it is really hard to see who is stalling more and deserves to get called.  This leads to strategies to do just enough to get to get the ref to call stalling on your opponent... Not what most of us consider "real" wrestling

That may be the case, but it still remains that the 3 point TD is still a bad idea.

[gimpeltf]

8 hours ago, Jim L said:

Calling more stealing as a way to improve wrestling just won't work.

The fewer thieves we have in the sport- the better off we are!

[1032004]

23 hours ago, AgaveMaria said:

I agree a reversal should be the same value as a takedown.

Should a 'catch & release' be worth a point? Letting a guy go rather than an actual escape is scored the same. Way different in reality. A point for an actual escape, nothing for a release, maybe?

How about way more stalling calls for riding without attempting turns to go for pins?

Would eliminate a Technical Fall. You can't pin, you wrestle the full match even it the score is 99-2.

Well with the new top stalling rule requiring working for a fall we should see more top stalling calls.   Yes it’s subjective but I don’t think you can really get rid of the subjectivity without making the product worse.  I know in a later post someone said stall calls should be based on specific times in positions but that gets confusing when there’s so many of them. 

Not a fan of eliminating tech falls or zero points for a given escape though.

[juniorvarsity]

I think the 4 point nearfall makes more sense with takedowns being 3 points. 

The main point coaches made about the 3 point takedown was the weight of the TD in relation to the 1 point escape. I anticipate the new scoring system is an improvement, but I'm going to need to watch a season of wrestling to really let is digest. I can't just watch Super 32 and make a judgement. 

[Offthemat]

Should there be a PAT for reversals, in order to even them up with TDs?

[mspart]

I have to say I'm not a fan of 3 points.   I think a better way to differentiate scoring would be to adjust the escape rule.   0 points for being let go, 1 point for an actual escape. 

mspart

[MPhillips]

56 minutes ago, mspart said:

0 points for being let go, 1 point for an actual escape. 

No. A guy is about to escape and the other let's him go. Nightmare...

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

No. A guy is about to escape and the other let's him go. Nightmare...

0.5    

[PencilNeck]

20 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

No. A guy is about to escape and the other let's him go. Nightmare...

I don't like the idea at all either, but you could only allow the 0 pt when it's in a restart where the offensive wrestler elects to go back to neutral.

[neutral]

No.  There should be a penalty for catch and release.  This isn't freestyle.  Whether released or an "earned" escape it should be one. 

[MPhillips]

1 hour ago, neutral said:

There should be a penalty for catch and release.  This isn't freestyle.

There's no, "catch and release" in FS either. Except that one time in the 125kg Olympic gold medal match...

[Ohio Elite]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

There's no, "catch and release" in FS either. Except that one time in the 125kg Olympic gold medal match...

Ya that was a good one. I heard WWE might be releasing him. Not working out. From Pat Mineos FB group. So take that with a grain of salt.

[MPhillips]

Just now, Ohio Elite said:

From Pat Mineos FB group. So take that with a grain of salt.

If he sees this you're straight to the Block list...

[jross]

There should be 0 points for an escape, 2 for a TD, and 2 for a Reversal.  

This maintains the incentive for scoring a reversal and still increases the incentive for more action through takedowns.  

Whether you were gifted or found your way to your feet, congrats on obtaining the neutral position (position of no control).  Your opportunity to score a takedown is the reward.  
 

[JVStateChamp]

22 hours ago, jross said:

There should be 0 points for an escape, 2 for a TD, and 2 for a Reversal.  

This maintains the incentive for scoring a reversal and still increases the incentive for more action through takedowns.  

Whether you were gifted or found your way to your feet, congrats on obtaining the neutral position (position of no control).  Your opportunity to score a takedown is the reward.  
 

This seems eerily similar to freestyle. It's just another step in the direction to eliminate mat wrestling. 

[jross]

21 minutes ago, JVStateChamp said:

This seems eerily similar to freestyle. It's just another step in the direction to eliminate mat wrestling. 

Reversal is still there.  The 'riding time' is still there.

Please say more about how the 3-point takedown is better than removing the 1-point escape concerning mat wrestling.

[JVStateChamp]

29 minutes ago, jross said:

Reversal is still there.  The 'riding time' is still there.

Please say more about how the 3-point takedown is better than removing the 1-point escape concerning mat wrestling.

I would say a better argument for 3 point takedown would be to make a 3 point reversal opposed to no escape point. I believe it is overlooked how difficult and how much effort it takes to get an escape in college wrestling. With 0 point escapes someone can do all the work to get to their feet in a rear standing position top guy will not put in the effort to mat return and in conclusion then gets 0 points for creating action and getting to their feet. Also, in your argument, the difference in points is the same, but in your case, you are not rewarding the bottom man for wrestling. 
 

[1032004]

34 minutes ago, jross said:

Reversal is still there.  The 'riding time' is still there.

Please say more about how the 3-point takedown is better than removing the 1-point escape concerning mat wrestling.

Doesn’t a “reversal” exist in freestyle at 1 point?  Could be wrong.

Removing the escape point would basically eliminate mat wrestling except for the best top wrestlers.  Maybe a couple more guys than current would choose top, but literally no one would choose bottom.   There may be a little mat wrestling with guys hanging on to try to get riding time then letting them up, but that’s about it other than a few guys and feet to back moves.

I like them adding the rule about top guy must work for a fall.  Already saw it in action in the Iowa CBU dual (and of course Iowa was perplexed when it was called against them).

[jross]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

literally no one would choose bottom

Would more choose top to go after near fall and riding time, and is that a problem?

Edited November 6, 2023 by jross

[JVStateChamp]

1 minute ago, jross said:

Would more choose top to go after near fall and riding time, and is that a problem?

You seem very dismissive of others who don't fully agree with your opinion. 

More people would choose top because there is no danger in going on top and the worst result is that they get an extra 5 seconds of riding time. Even without trying to turn to start on top and grabbing an ankle for a 5-second count can waste or give the top man 7 seconds of riding time. That does not sound conducive to a good product. 

[jross]

2 hours ago, JVStateChamp said:

I would say a better argument for 3 point takedown would be to make a 3 point reversal opposed to no escape point. I believe it is overlooked how difficult and how much effort it takes to get an escape in college wrestling. With 0 point escapes someone can do all the work to get to their feet in a rear standing position top guy will not put in the effort to mat return and in conclusion then gets 0 points for creating action and getting to their feet. Also, in your argument, the difference in points is the same, but in your case, you are not rewarding the bottom man for wrestling. 
 

A 3 and 3 would be similar, yes.  It will be interesting to see if wrestling becomes more exciting to watch.  I want higher-scoring matches because increased action is entertainment, not because the point system is inflated.

I want to see the guy with one takedown win the match against the guy with two escapes, and the current format addresses that.

[JVStateChamp]

3 minutes ago, jross said:

A 3 and 3 would be similar, yes.  It will be interesting to see if wrestling becomes more exciting to watch.  I want higher-scoring matches because increased action is entertainment, not because the point system is inflated.

I want to see the guy with one takedown win the match against the guy with two escapes, and the current format addresses that.

I agree that action is entertaining from a viewership perspective and does promote growth in the sport. I think the scoring situation may not be a huge factor in promoting scoring. I think a huge factor in lower-scoring matches as well as what we see as a lack of action in matches is that the talent level in the most viewed college wrestling matches is very high. It is very hard to have high scoring and lots of action between two high-level wrestlers where talent levels are similar which makes for low scoring and fewer exchanges. I do think its possible that this may be the root of the problem, but also just a theory. 

[1032004]

25 minutes ago, jross said:

Would more choose top to go after near fall and riding time, and is that a problem?

Of course more people would choose top and no that part of it is not a problem.

I’d guess right now choices are somewhere around 60% bottom, 35% neutral, 5% top.  If escapes were zero it’d probably be something like 75% neutral, 25% top, 0% bottom.

So while there’s a chance the mat wrestling that does happen is more exciting, there will be considerably less of it and I’m not even convinced what’s left would be more exciting.  Like I said, you’d probably just have guys trying to hang on for riding time, and another downside is I’d bet you’d see less scrambles because when the top guy senses danger he’d be more likely to just let go.

I’m actually more of a fan of neutral wrestling than mat wrestling.  But I don’t think a match needs to be 6 minutes and 45 seconds of neutral.

And once again, if refs do actually call more stalling on top with the new rule, that alone should help make mat wrestling more exciting.

[jross]

@1032004 Does the 3-point takedown create even more incentive to pick bottom than a 2-point takedown, given the need to narrow the point gap and the common strategy to secure a 1-point escape?
 

Edited November 6, 2023 by jross