I heard that majority of the population agrees on 80% of the issues. Let us test that.

[MPhillips]

14 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

The tone is better here for some reason.

It's clear there's a large divide, but it hasn't degenerated into name calling and sloganeering.
That's a big plus.

That didn't last long...

[jross]

Education.  

Loan forgiveness is stupid.  If you take a loan, you pay it back.

Providing an affordable schooling option increases participation for low income students, and that leads to a better life and less crime.

I am against paying another cent in taxes, so some other social service needs reduced funding or better education payment methods are necessary.

How can the nation provide more Hard Work education options like the college of the Ozarks?

 

https://www.cofo.edu/Cost

TUITION ASSURANCE SCHOLARSHIP 

Each student participates in the on-campus work program for 15 hours per week and two forty-hour work weeks per school year.

Credits from participation in the work program, any federal and/or state aid for which students qualify, and the C of O Tuition Assurance Scholarship combine to cover the Tuition Assurance.

There are no student loans involved and there is no cash due from students for Tuition Assurance: Only good, solid, hard work. All C of O students are given the opportunity to graduate debt-free.

[Le duke]

Education.  

Loan forgiveness is stupid.  If you take a loan, you pay it back.
Providing an affordable schooling option increases participation for low income students, and that leads to a better life and less crime.
I am against paying another cent in taxes, so some other social service needs reduced funding or better education payment methods are necessary.
How can the nation provide more Hard Work education options like the college of the Ozarks?
 
https://www.cofo.edu/Cost
TUITION ASSURANCE SCHOLARSHIP 
Each student participates in the on-campus work program for 15 hours per week and two forty-hour work weeks per school year.
Credits from participation in the work program, any federal and/or state aid for which students qualify, and the C of O Tuition Assurance Scholarship combine to cover the Tuition Assurance.
There are no student loans involved and there is no cash due from students for Tuition Assurance: Only good, solid, hard work. All C of O students are given the opportunity to graduate debt-free.

I wouldn’t use a college in a state that would be starving to death without the tax dollars from others as an example of how things should be done.

Arkansas is almost twice as dependent on the federal government as CO. I would really appreciate it if my tax dollars would stop subsidizing your bad decisions in your state.


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[Ban Basketball]

17 hours ago, jross said:

Honest question.  What is the thought process that supports dispatching innocent babies in the womb while wanting convicted murderous criminals to live?  

I find a ton of inconsistencies with many who claim to be "pro-life," which is why pro-birth is more fitting for the vast majority of them. 

I didn't need to look any further than right here in Iowa over the past two years to see those colors fully reveal themselves. 

[Ban Basketball]

13 hours ago, jross said:

If you shared the belief that the unborn are human beings, you would classify abortion as a homicide.  

The day that Deuce Grifter proclaimed to the crowd in an interview that a woman who seeks an abortion should be prosecuted for her crime revealed immediately that pro-birth groups don't believe that abortion is murder. They immediately jumped in to correct Deuce by saying that,  "us pro-birth people don't believe that. "

I was happy to learn in those moments that pro-birth groups do not believe that abortion is murder/homicide.

[Mike Parrish]

2 hours ago, Ban Basketball said:

I find a ton of inconsistencies with many who claim to be "pro-life," which is why pro-birth is more fitting for the vast majority of them. 

I didn't need to look any further than right here in Iowa over the past two years to see those colors fully reveal themselves. 

I can't find any way to reconcile the views of the right with their claimed desire for a decrease in government intrusion into people's lives.

Must be me.

[Ban Basketball]

3 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

I can't find any way to reconcile the views of the right with their claimed desire for a decrease in government intrusion into people's lives.

Must be me.

Look no further than education. 

[jross]

Just now, Mike Parrish said:

I can't find any way to reconcile the views of the right with their claimed desire for a decrease in government intrusion into people's lives.

Must be me.

Let me explain it to you.  The best laws are natural laws.  An example of natural law includes the idea that it is universally accepted and understood that killing a human being is wrong.  It is also universally accepted that punishing someone for killing that person is right.  Sayings like don't be a dick and treat others as you would want to be treated are generally understood without needing legislation.  So if one believes that abortion is a homicide that often meets the definition of murder, then killing one's unborn because they don't feel like being a parent is a dick move.  Now you don't agree that an unborn is a human being.  Okay, that's how the viability conversation comes about... when preemies can survive at 21 weeks gestation, the debate is finished; that clump of cells is human.

Prevent a mother from murdering her child?  Yep!  Force a child to live with a mother that does not want them?  Nope!  Take taxes from me to pay for unnecessary abortion?  Nope!  Take taxes from me to pay for shelter, food, and the health of John Robinson?  Are you kidding me!  Lie to me about what the Covid vaccine will do and force me to take it to keep my remote job?  Please find somewhere else to exist!

[Mike Parrish]

"when preemies can survive at 21 weeks gestation"

1. Just how viable is a 21 week old fetus?

2. Who pays for all of the medical expenses for trying to keep alive a 21 week old fetus?

3. Are you saying you're good with abortion at any time prior to 21 weeks?

[jross]

2 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

"when preemies can survive at 21 weeks gestation"

1. Just how viable is a 21 week old fetus?

2. Who pays for all of the medical expenses for trying to keep alive a 21 week old fetus?

3. Are you saying you're good with abortion at any time prior to 21 weeks?

I already covered #3, and I'm good with compromise and legislation that is defined at the state level.  #2 insurance.  #1. Alive enough, but unfortunately not enough to walk, talk, and beg.

[Mike Parrish]

5 minutes ago, jross said:

I already covered #3, and I'm good with compromise and legislation that is defined at the state level.  #2 insurance.  #1. Alive enough, but unfortunately not enough to walk, talk, and beg.

1. It's less than you think (https://healthier.stanfordchildrens.org/en/premature-babies-survival-rate-is-climbing/)

2. Insurance means you're spending other people's money from a pool, but you're against using taxes (spending other people's money from a pool) to pay for things you disagree with.

3. Do you disagree with Georgia's 6 week limit?

 

Perhaps you could take the rhetoric down a few notched too.
We're not going to solve anything here, none of us have that type of authority, but it would be nicer to talk to you with less heat in the mix.

[Ban Basketball]

43 minutes ago, jross said:

Let me explain it to you.  The best laws are natural laws.  An example of natural law includes the idea that it is universally accepted and understood that killing a human being is wrong.  It is also universally accepted that punishing someone for killing that person is right.  Sayings like don't be a dick and treat others as you would want to be treated are generally understood without needing legislation.  So if one believes that abortion is a homicide that often meets the definition of murder, then killing one's unborn because they don't feel like being a parent is a dick move.  Now you don't agree that an unborn is a human being.  Okay, that's how the viability conversation comes about... when preemies can survive at 21 weeks gestation, the debate is finished; that clump of cells is human.

Prevent a mother from murdering her child?  Yep!  Force a child to live with a mother that does not want them?  Nope!  Take taxes from me to pay for unnecessary abortion?  Nope!  Take taxes from me to pay for shelter, food, and the health of John Robinson?  Are you kidding me!  Lie to me about what the Covid vaccine will do and force me to take it to keep my remote job?  Please find somewhere else to exist!

I'm not going to get too much into there current debate (abortion), but natural law is problematic,  as it doesnt' really account for cultural variation across,  and within,  cultures. 

Using your example,  killing another human isn't seen as universally wrong.  Just take a gander at this forum to see our differing views of the death penalty to illustrate that,  just within our own culture! Then,  add in cross-cultural variation and our heads begin to spin.

[jross]

1. How many surviving preemies does it take to provide evidence the unborn is a human being?
2. Insurance is optionable. Taxes are not.
3. I already shared my opinion on Georgia and my own opinion.  I am glad the law applied at the state level rather than the federal level, regardless of what the federal law was or could be.  Georgia law doesn't matter as much to me as Kansas law.  

BTW - I support healthcare for the public.  I don't have well-formed opinions on how to regulate it or how to fund it.  My buddy became a step-father to a girl born with cystic fibrosis; he now owes more money than he can ever pay.  That seems different than chronic diseases associated with being obese.  The country should be tightening its belt and paying off its debts before spending more money it doesn't have.  

 

[jross]

1 hour ago, Ban Basketball said:

I'm not going to get too much into there current debate (abortion), but natural law is problematic,  as it doesnt' really account for cultural variation across,  and within,  cultures. 

Using your example,  killing another human isn't seen as universally wrong.  Just take a gander at this forum to see our differing views of the death penalty to illustrate that,  just within our own culture! Then,  add in cross-cultural variation and our heads begin to spin.

Killing another innocent human is seen as universally wrong across cultures, as is the golden rule.  Dispatching the killer of innocents ensures they don't kill again and treat the murderer the way they treated others.  

[MPhillips]

 

You shall not murder if so An eye for an eye?

[Crotalus]

2 hours ago, jross said:

Take taxes from me to pay for shelter, food, and the health of John Robinson?  Are you kidding me! 

As I mentioned earlier, putting someone to death costs many times more in taxpayer dollars, than does life in prison.

[Ban Basketball]

57 minutes ago, jross said:

Killing another innocent human is seen as universally wrong across cultures, as is the golden rule.  Dispatching the killer of innocents ensures they don't kill again and treat the murderer the way they treated others.  

That's not correct.  

In war time it's called "collateral damage," and an unfortunate,  accepted consequence of war. 

In the U.S. it's called,  " open up the schools,  lift lockdown rules,  mask policies,  and open up the economy." In doing so,  it's expected that innocent lives will be lost,  but accepted,  as money rules.  Over one million Americans have died to date,  and,  certainly,  many could have been avoided by sticking to what we were advised to do. 

Also in the U.S. it's called "capital punishment. " Even though we've had hundreds since the 70's that were released from death row after being found innocent,  the death penalty still goes merrily along because the occasional "oops" is apparently worth it. 

Also in the U.S. we call it,  "gun rights, " and thousands of innocent people die each year due to lax gun laws.  If a few thousand innocent people die for our manufactured "rights," oh well, it's the " price of freedom.

Finally,  the Aborigines (sp?) in Australia take their elderly, dying family members into the outback and left to die.

I could come up with a million more, but the pernt is is that there is no universal standard of " right and wrong," as it's dependent on cultural norms and values,  and time,  place,  and situation. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Ban Basketball

[jross]

15 hours ago, Crotalus said:

As I mentioned earlier, putting someone to death costs many times more in taxpayer dollars, than does life in prison.

That's because somebody went stupid somewhere.  The raccoon and coyote caught red-handed after a nice meal on my ducks do not require 30 years on death row and a drug cocktail.  

[jross]

15 hours ago, Ban Basketball said:

Finally,  the Aborigines (sp?) in Australia take their elderly, dying family members into the outback and left to die.

I am not familiar with that one.  Are the children doing this against their parent's wishes?  Like parents say, "please don't abandon me to die," and the children are like, "just die already," and leave them?  

Or is it a case like a woman having terminal cancer who chooses death on her terms?  Not everyone is, but I'm okay with that. 

[Husker_Du]

16 hours ago, Crotalus said:

As I mentioned earlier, putting someone to death costs many times more in taxpayer dollars, than does life in prison.

everyone says that. 

it doesn't have to. 

[jross]

18 hours ago, Mike Parrish said:

Perhaps you could take the rhetoric down a few notched too.

This is probably good feedback.  My job requires careful selection of word choice and having informed reasons for my opinions/decisions.  While it won't win friends, I'm good with this level of care in a social topic discussion.  Some of these topics are meaningful, and I discuss views with my children.  What do my children think, what do I think, what do others think?  I admit when I'm wrong, and I change my views.

[Le duke]

everyone says that. 
it doesn't have to. 

Why is that?


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[jross]

6 hours ago, Le duke said:

I wouldn’t use a college in a state that would be starving to death without the tax dollars from others as an example of how things should be done.

Arkansas is almost twice as dependent on the federal government as CO. I would really appreciate it if my tax dollars would stop subsidizing your bad decisions in your state.

My state is Kansas.  The College of the Ozarks is in Missouri.   The idea that one can graduate for free in today's world with a little hard work should be copied regardless of how good Colorado's education offering is.

[Le duke]

My state is Kansas.  The College of the Ozarks is in Missouri.   The idea that one can graduate for free in today's world with a little hard work should be copied regardless of how good Colorado's education offering is.

Again: my federal tax dollars fund that cheap education in Arkansas. What they don’t pay for themselves is made up by outside money from other states, via the federal government.

I’d like to keep my tax dollars in-state and provide cheaper, better education for CO instead of the broke-dick state of Arkansas.


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[jross]

1 minute ago, Le duke said:

Again: my federal tax dollars fund that cheap education in Arkansas.

I’d like to keep my tax dollars in-state and provide cheaper, better education for CO instead of the broke-dick state of Arkansas.

Have you chosen, or is your stance a parody?