All Star Classic

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Abney wouldn't compete at 197 in D1 NCAA this year.

Streck definitely wouldn't.  Have you been seeing him lose repeatedly in the Freestyle circuit?  He has been.  He isn't on the level.

Burkes is 12W-3L in three total seasons... are you basing him being able to compete off of his 10-3 Decision loss to Iowa State's Cabanban or...?

Blubaugh?  If Abney isn't competing, the he isn't either.  Have you seen how fckn deep 197 is this year?  There was a recent D2 197lber who didn't do anything at the D1 level.  He was even more dominant as a D2 champ, in Ryan Vasbinder.

Abdullaev isn't even listed on Menlo's roster.

I am all for D2 and D3 competing... there is nothing stopping them from entering the MSU open (Notre Dame used to go there).  I know D1 programs don't like to schedule for duals... but there are plenty of individual tournaments that would be happy to have UNK or Grandview or any of these other smaller division programs.  Midlands?!  What about Midlands?

I am confused why you think Abney "wouldn't compete". Is it because you say so or do you have data to show otherwise? Same with Blubaugh.

Streck is a past D1 National Qualifier, and I would feel comfortable saying that he is better now than he was when he qualified.

If you're going off WrestleStat for Burks' (I misspelled his name the first time) stats, they're far from complete.

Vasbinder "more dominant of a D2 champ" than Abney? We must not agree on the definition of dominant.

Not being g listed on the roster in the current semester doesn't mean he is out of the sport. He placed seventh at Worlds this year, and went 6-6 with Uguev at the Olympics in 2021.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

I am all for D2 and D3 competing... there is nothing stopping them from entering the MSU open (Notre Dame used to go there).  I know D1 programs don't like to schedule for duals... but there are plenty of individual tournaments that would be happy to have UNK or Grandview or any of these other smaller division programs.  Midlands?!  What about Midlands?

Having coached at Midlands for one of those smaller schools, I can tell you that Cyzewski, and Kraft before him, limit the amount of non-D1 entrants/programs to the tournament. The most we ever had was two.

As you may know, student-athletes don't dictate team schedules. For the smaller programs, as you call them, that is an added expense to take one to two guys and coaches to said tournaments that can be 700-plus miles away, in some of the cases we are talking about here. Good luck getting your administration to sign off on something like that. As someone who has been in charge of scheduling and budget for one of those smaller schools, I can tell you personally that those conversations do not go far and end pretty quickly.

[nhs67]

2 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I am confused why you think Abney "wouldn't compete". Is it because you say so or do you have data to show otherwise? Same with Blubaugh.

Streck is a past D1 National Qualifier, and I would feel comfortable saying that he is better now than he was when he qualified.

If you're going off WrestleStat for Burks' (I misspelled his name the first time) stats, they're far from complete.

Vasbinder "more dominant of a D2 champ" than Abney? We must not agree on the definition of dominant.

Not being g listed on the roster in the current semester doesn't mean he is out of the sport. He placed seventh at Worlds this year, and went 6-6 with Uguev at the Olympics in 2021.

Going undefeated two years in a row is a good indication of being better and more dominant?  Has Abney ever had an undefeated season against D2 competition?

Streck is chump change in D1 now.  He had his chance and failed.  He just competed at the Open this last spring and lost convincingly to Trephan and Elam.  Two guys who are on the low-AA/R12 type tier right now.

I understand the not being listed part with Abdullaev.  I am a big fan of him in Freestyle.  Is he not wrestling 133lbs?  Who has he beaten in folkstyle?  Different weight classes and different styles.

Please educate me more on Burks.  I would enjoy hearing about him.  His actual results that are on Wrestlestat don't give you any ammo...

Those guys have chances to compete against D1.  They don't do it.  The proof is in the pudding.  Joey Davis put it on the line every chance he could and surthrived.

I won't anoint someone in a lower division as being 'on par' unless they actually try to fill those shoes (and succeed). 

[nhs67]

4 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

Having coached at Midlands for one of those smaller schools, I can tell you that Cyzewski, and Kraft before him, limit the amount of non-D1 entrants/programs to the tournament. The most we ever had was two.

As you may know, student-athletes don't dictate team schedules. For the smaller programs, as you call them, that is an added expense to take one to two guys and coaches to said tournaments that can be 700-plus miles away, in some of the cases we are talking about here. Good luck getting your administration to sign off on something like that. As someone who has been in charge of scheduling and budget for one of those smaller schools, I can tell you personally that those conversations do not go far and end pretty quickly.

Smaller division, not smaller.  Get it right.  It works like gauging.  The lower the number the larger the gauge.  D1 is lower than D2 and that makes it a larger division.

You're doing nothing to convince me that anyone right now would compete.  The actual results aren't there.  I welcome them to challenge the D1 guys where they can (Bill Farrell anyone? No divisions there).

[Jim L]

7 hours ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I am confused why you think Abney "wouldn't compete". Is it because you say so or do you have data to show otherwise? Same with Blubaugh.

Streck is a past D1 National Qualifier, and I would feel comfortable saying that he is better now than he was when he qualified.

If you're going off WrestleStat for Burks' (I misspelled his name the first time) stats, they're far from complete.

Vasbinder "more dominant of a D2 champ" than Abney? We must not agree on the definition of dominant.

Not being g listed on the roster in the current semester doesn't mean he is out of the sport. He placed seventh at Worlds this year, and went 6-6 with Uguev at the Olympics in 2021.

I believe the best D2 and maybe D3 has to offer can compete at the D1 level but that does not meant hey are ready for an All Star event.  Big difference between being a competent starter level guy and belonging at an All Star event where traditionally it was #1 v #2

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

3 hours ago, Jim L said:

I believe the best D2 and maybe D3 has to offer can compete at the D1 level but that does not meant hey are ready for an All Star event.  Big difference between being a competent starter level guy and belonging at an All Star event where traditionally it was #1 v #2

Traditionally... not all matches are #1 vs. #2 or they are those rankings on paper and find out otherwise as time goes on.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

10 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Smaller division, not smaller.  Get it right.  It works like gauging.  The lower the number the larger the gauge.  D1 is lower than D2 and that makes it a larger division.

You're doing nothing to convince me that anyone right now would compete.  The actual results aren't there.  I welcome them to challenge the D1 guys where they can (Bill Farrell anyone? No divisions there).

 

[Show_Me]

On 11/1/2023 at 9:39 PM, Jim L said:

Big difference between being a competent starter level guy and belonging at an All Star event where traditionally it was #1 v #2

How many of these matchups are actually #1 vs #2 (via any ranking) ?

Your point is not valid as this event is nowhere close to being a #1 vs #2 event and hasn’t been for awhile.

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, Show_Me said:

How many of these matchups are actually #1 vs #2 (via any ranking) ?

Your point is not valid as this event is nowhere close to being a #1 vs #2 event and hasn’t been for awhile.

Last year's Mekhi vs Starrocci was literally a rematch of the NCAA finals

[Jim L]

7 hours ago, Show_Me said:

How many of these matchups are actually #1 vs #2 (via any ranking) ?

Your point is not valid as this event is nowhere close to being a #1 vs #2 event and hasn’t been for awhile.

Please notice the word traditionally. I know attendance if the top two is very rare. Almost always both wrestlers are highly ranked

[MizzouFan01]

Unsure what happened to the original 157 bout, but here is the replacement match. 

[Pish]

1 hour ago, MizzouFan01 said:

Unsure what happened to the original 157 bout, but here is the replacement match. 

Teemer I believe had concussion last weekend and Levi looked to tweak something in his knee in one of his matches. I’d imagine if you not 100%, makes no sense to wrestle in this

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, MizzouFan01 said:

Unsure what happened to the original 157 bout, but here is the replacement match. 

I think most of us expected the original bout to fall through.

Although @Corbydid say Teemer would be there.  He never said he was wrestling, though.

That said, Teemer didn't have a concussion.  Just a swollen eye.

Edited November 18, 2023 by nhs67

[PSULou64]

I actually would like to see DII champions or DIII champions wrestle DI champs or AA's.  I mean we will see the DI guys wrestle each other during the season, in tournaments or at the NCAA championships against each other. I may be alone in this by I think it would add a nice wrinkle. 

[Antitroll2828]

On 10/31/2023 at 12:22 PM, Alces Alces Gigas said:

As of late, there have been very few D2 or D3 kids that were thought to have been able.to.compete.for the top 3-4 spots in D1.    Most have been HWTs and the last one of those was Fortune but in reality it was Tervel 

Riley LeFever was a 4xer at wabash and he beat a lot of D1 guys , his freshman year alone, he beat Cash Wilke , Schultz from Nebraska, one of the Orndorff brothers ,  Kyle Synders brother , Jackson Striggow and wrestled Kolin Moore close and beat Moore right after graduation for 3rd at the world team trials ..going back a little further TJ Hepburn was a 2x D2 champ , lost to dake 4-0 in the midlands finals his senior year , he could’ve wrestled with the top guys , Frank Cagnina too, he knocked off Tony Ramos at ncaas his freshman year at Lehigh then transferred to central Missouri and win 2 titles 

[jchapman]

9 hours ago, PSULou64 said:

I actually would like to see DII champions or DIII champions wrestle DI champs or AA's.  I mean we will see the DI guys wrestle each other during the season, in tournaments or at the NCAA championships against each other. I may be alone in this by I think it would add a nice wrinkle. 

I don’t think it would go very well for the D2 and D3 guys against D1 AAs.  
 

I wonder what a dual of D2/3 Champs vs 7th place B1G tournament guys would go.

[AgaveMaria]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:36 PM, nhs67 said:

I won't anoint someone in a lower division as being 'on par' unless they actually try to fill those shoes (and succeed). 

Compare.

Cael 159-0

Joey Davis, 133-0 DII

Marcus LeVesseur,  155-0 DIII

[nhs67]

3 hours ago, AgaveMaria said:

Compare.

Cael 159-0

Joey Davis, 133-0 DII

Marcus LeVesseur,  155-0 DIII

Joey Davis did try and failed when stepping up.  The hear he won 184lbs he lost to a Dieringer that would go on to win 165lbs.

Where and when did LeVesseur try and compete against D1 guys?

[jchapman]

3 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Where and when did LeVesseur try and compete against D1 guys?

Started out at Minnesota, I think he redshirted that first year.  Not sure if he wrestled in opens, but was in the room.  

[Jason Bryant]

Joey Davis did try and failed when stepping up.  The hear he won 184lbs he lost to a Dieringer that would go on to win 165lbs.
Where and when did LeVesseur try and compete against D1 guys?

In a freestyle bout … Joey never went to Fargo, whereas Ringer was quite accomplished at the age group levels. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

[nhs67]

41 minutes ago, Jason Bryant said:

In a freestyle bout … Joey never went to Fargo, whereas Ringer was quite accomplished at the age group levels. This is not an apples to apples comparison.

At least he was willing to put it on the line.

[Idaho]

12 hours ago, AgaveMaria said:

Compare.

Cael 159-0

Joey Davis, 133-0 DII

Marcus LeVesseur,  155-0 DIII

Joey Davis - Two of his seasons are on wrestestat - He has wins over Wilps in 2014 who finished 7th at the D1 NCAA and 2nd the next year. He has a win over Rasheed who went on a few years later to finish  7th. I have no doubt Davis  would have been a multiple AA in D1 and possibly a 1x champ. I think that was his ceiling. Certainly not undefeated.  A far cry from Cael. 

LeVesseur - As mentioned - transferred out of Minnesota mainly to play football as well. It's hard to find individual match/season results for him and who he matched up with at tournaments that were D1 AA or starters. I think he would have been a multiple AA as well.  Would not. have been undefeated in D1.  I believe Bertin and Johnston were the finalists at 157 his senior year in D1. 

Cael- No comments necessary. 

[Jason Bryant]

At least he was willing to put it on the line.

Edit: see post above.

[Antitroll2828]

22 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Joey Davis - Two of his seasons are on wrestestat - He has wins over Wilps in 2014 who finished 7th at the D1 NCAA and 2nd the next year. He has a win over Rasheed who went on a few years later to finish  7th. I have no doubt Davis  would have been a multiple AA in D1 and possibly a 1x champ. I think that was his ceiling. Certainly not undefeated.  A far cry from Cael. 

LeVesseur - As mentioned - transferred out of Minnesota mainly to play football as well. It's hard to find individual match/season results for him and who he matched up with at tournaments that were D1 AA or starters. I think he would have been a multiple AA as well.  Would not. have been undefeated in D1.  I believe Bertin and Johnston were the finalists at 157 his senior year in D1. 

Cael- No comments necessary. 

LeVesseur did put it on Ben Askren when they were both seniors in hs 

[Gus]

12 hours ago, Antitroll2828 said:

LeVesseur did put it on Ben Askren when they were both seniors in hs 

Askren was not great in his redshirt year if I remember correctly.