Progressives vs liberals

[jross]

54 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

And whenever they're reminded that this isn't true, that's where the aggrievement comes in.

"They're letting gay people get married? That's an attack on MY marriage!"

"My favorite beer is advertising with a trans woman? That's an insult to ME!"

"Obama wore a tan suit? He doesn't respect ME!"

They?  Conservatives come in different shapes and size. 

When the gay marriage topic was discussed during the Obama years, every conservative I spoke with supported equal rights for gay and straight people.  The government could have solved the 'gay marriage' debate with a simple act and proclamation.

• Recognizing that the term 'marriage' holds traditional religious significance, the USA governement is committed to a more inclusive and secular approach. From this point on, civil unions will be the verbiage used to denote legal partnerships. All unions, regardless of gender or orientation, will be equal under the law.

No one* I spoke with was personally insulted by a trans person on the beer can.  Everyone understood the inclusion intent and agreed:

• The brand does not know their customer (e.g., customer segment that believes T is a mental illness)
• The brand leadership should not have insulted its audience as 'frat guys' that need to evolve.  (this was the 'insult')

*I play baseball on a competitive senior men's team.  This team has 24 construction workers, engineers, lawyers, politicians, business owners, etc. with more democrats than republicans that socializes in the parking lot after games.  Most conservative acquaintances stopped drinking Bud Light.  A few boycotted other AB beers as well.  One construction business owner gladly filled his fridge up with free beer from everyone and bought it cheaply at the market.

Nuance. I must remind myself of unique beliefs when debating very left democrats on a wrestling forum.  To spell that out... one would generally assume that wrestlers (blue collar hard working sport) lean republican.

[Husker_Du]

5 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Protecting fragility is the hallmark of conservatism. Embracing difference and the struggle to grow is not a conservative principle. 

These accusations sounds an awful lot like confessions.

wake up, boss.

that may have been true a decade or two ago.

there's clearly been an axis-shifting ideological flip.

same as propensity for global conflict.

the evidence is all up in your face. 

and the fact that lefties don't recognize it is clear that they are more tribal than they are vigilant or intelligent. your not voting or commenting on your values; you're blindly and without evidence, defending your team. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

21 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

wake up, boss.

that may have been true a decade or two ago.

there's clearly been an axis-shifting ideological flip.

same as propensity for global conflict.

the evidence is all up in your face. 

and the fact that lefties don't recognize it is clear that they are more tribal than they are vigilant or intelligent. your not voting or commenting on your values; you're blindly and without evidence, defending your team. 

If you had any examples to site, that would be handy. But considering you didn't include any, if seems as if you can't because they don't exist or you won't because you just can't be bothered. Which tells me the amount of conviction you have with this conversation. 

[jross]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

To the privileged, equality feels like oppression. How is what you said differ from this saying? Because it seems like that is exactly what they fight against...

Will you better connect the dots between my statement and yours?  I'm not able to make the connection, and am asking myself questions like below to try and compehend your jump-to assertion.

• Is it a privilege to hold conservative beliefs?
• Are some conservatives oppressed?
• Is it a privilege or a natural right to live life free of governement intervention?
• How do conservatives compare to other groups with respect to giving charity by their own free choice? 
  • (Hint: Conservatives give more.  Why pick on the group that gives more to charity?)

[ThreePointTakedown]

26 minutes ago, jross said:

They?  Conservatives come in different shapes and size. 

When the gay marriage topic was discussed during the Obama years, every conservative I spoke with supported equal rights for gay and straight people.  The government could have solved the 'gay marriage' debate with a simple act and proclamation.

• Recognizing that the term 'marriage' holds traditional religious significance, the USA governement is committed to a more inclusive and secular approach. From this point on, civil unions will be the verbiage used to denote legal partnerships. All unions, regardless of gender or orientation, will be equal under the law.

No one* I spoke with was personally insulted by a trans person on the beer can.  Everyone understood the inclusion intent and agreed:

• The brand does not know their customer (e.g., customer segment that believes T is a mental illness)
• The brand leadership should not have insulted its audience as 'frat guys' that need to evolve.  (this was the 'insult')

*I play baseball on a competitive senior men's team.  This team has 24 construction workers, engineers, lawyers, politicians, business owners, etc. with more democrats than republicans that socializes in the parking lot after games.  Most conservative acquaintances stopped drinking Bud Light.  A few boycotted other AB beers as well.  One construction business owner gladly filled his fridge up with free beer from everyone and bought it cheaply at the market.

Nuance. I must remind myself of unique beliefs when debating very left democrats on a wrestling forum.  To spell that out... one would generally assume that wrestlers (blue collar hard working sport) lean republican.

C'mon. That you have a more openminded group is a feather in your cap, no doubt. Those that lead the conservative movement are interested in shrinking government so much so that public education is no longer a viable option. Some want an outright theocracy to take over. Ignore the ugly parts of our history so we can go on and marginalize minority groups. Many more are changing their minds on the issues of the day but it always comes in the same pattern: who are these new/scary people I have to consider? Do I know any of them? Turns out I do. I guess their ok. I guess they deserve the bare minimum of civil rights like everyone else.   Its exhausting to watch this happen over and over. Fighting a carbon copy of the same fight to get the same outcome. When they could just be openminded in the first place and we can move on to more important things. 

[jross]

5 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

C'mon. That you have a more openminded group is a feather in your cap, no doubt. Those that lead the conservative movement are interested in shrinking government so much so that public education is no longer a viable option. Some want an outright theocracy to take over. Ignore the ugly parts of our history so we can go on and marginalize minority groups. Many more are changing their minds on the issues of the day but it always comes in the same pattern: who are these new/scary people I have to consider? Do I know any of them? Turns out I do. I guess their ok. I guess they deserve the bare minimum of civil rights like everyone else.   Its exhausting to watch this happen over and over. Fighting a carbon copy of the same fight to get the same outcome. When they could just be openminded in the first place and we can move on to more important things. 

Some non-conservatives scream out 'VIOLENCE' if they are 'misgendered.'  

Open minded is respecting the traditional word 'marriage' is religious and acknowledging a solution like 'civil union' rather than forcing dictionary updates on the conservative 'bad' people.  But open minded is also accepting a new definition of marriage, against one's wishes, because it is what a minority wants.

Open and Close minded people everywhere depending on which perspective you look from.

Nutty people everywhere.

Edited October 24, 2023 by jross

[Bigbrog]

All those trying to "define" conservatism better never once complain when someone explains liberal with totally overexaggerated generalities and use extreme examples from a small percentage of people as way to describe a large portion of peoples believes.  And my favorite example, if people want to make sure logic and reason is brought into the conversation about which books k-3 graders have access equates them to they love "banning books" and "don't say gay" laws.  You all are freaking laughable!

[Ohio Elite]

2 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Conservative averse to change. We are flawed; individually, societally, and governmentally. Conservatives work to stymie the new ideas, technology, cultural advancement, and/or governmental assistance meant for the bettering of those flaws. 

Fragility. Why try to keep things from changing if not for fear of breaking either, themselves or the group? I am not of that mindset. If I am wrong please offer another point of view as an option? Any specific examples, how conservatism helped, and the benefit in the outcome? 

If you are honest, even asking the third question is laughable. But maybe you are, in that case.  Examples: no immigration reform ideas and , tax cuts that benefit the rich and super rich,  Government ID's for voting, Gerrymandering(granted not exclusive to that political ideology, but haven't heard a State or Federal court strike down a liberal election map because it was discriminated on racial lines with Surgical Precision ), conservatives 'otherize' just about everyone, trying to scare their supporters into thinking that the next boogie man(gay people, immigrants, trans people, homeless people) is coming for them and that they are the only ones that can stand up to them. 

Doesn't seem very inclusive. So again, I laugh in your general direction and eagerly anticipate your rebuttal. 

If your too stupid to get a government ID, you're probably too stupid to vote.  Even hillbillies and people in the hood have ID'S. How you think they buy their alcohol?

Seems like common sense..

[Plasmodium]

19 minutes ago, jross said:

Some non-conservatives scream out 'VIOLENCE' if they are 'misgendered.'  

Open minded is respecting the traditional word 'marriage' is religious and acknowledging a solution like 'civil union' rather than forcing dictionary updates on the conservative 'bad' people.  But open minded is also accepting a new definition of marriage, against one's wishes, because it is what a minority wants.

Open and Close minded people everywhere depending on which perspective you look from.

Nutty people everywhere.

Marriage is not a religious term nor are marriages performed in a religious ceremony limited to a man and a woman.  Using a civil union definition will require new legal documents and definitions- "married, filing jointly" for example.

[mspart]

5 minutes ago, Ohio Elite said:

If your too stupid to get a government ID, you're probably too stupid to vote.  Even hillbillies and people in the hood have ID'S. How you think they buy their alcohol?

Seems like common sense..

And it took a guy from Ohio to tell us this.   If he can figure it out, it seems reasonable to suggest that anyone can figure it out!!!

mspart

(PS - Just having fun with you OE.   I really liked the post.   Very clear and concise and right on.)

 

 

[Paul158]

40 minutes ago, jross said:

Will you better connect the dots between my statement and yours?  I'm not able to make the connection, and am asking myself questions like below to try and compehend your jump-to assertion.

• Is it a privilege to hold conservative beliefs?
• Are some conservatives oppressed?
• Is it a privilege or a natural right to live life free of governement intervention?
• How do conservatives compare to other groups with respect to giving charity by their own free choice? 
  • (Hint: Conservatives give more.  Why pick on the group that gives more to charity?)

Conservatives are very generous of the giving of their money and their time . They are very willing to do volunteer work. 

[mspart]

4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Marriage is not a religious term nor are marriages performed in a religious ceremony limited to a man and a woman.  Using a civil union definition will require new legal documents and definitions- "married, filing jointly" for example.

Ultimately, this is correct.   Any marriage conducted by a religious person (pastor, bishop, etc) has to have sanction from the state to do so.   And all such must be submitted to the state for recognition.   No different that a Justice o peace. 

But on the other hand, many religious and religions feel that marriage is sacred in a religious sense.   You could include Christian, Jewish, and Muslim in those categories.  Marriage is bigger than just a government construct.  

mspart

[Plasmodium]

2 minutes ago, mspart said:

Ultimately, this is correct.   Any marriage conducted by a religious person (pastor, bishop, etc) has to have sanction from the state to do so.   And all such must be submitted to the state for recognition.   No different that a Justice o peace. 

But on the other hand, many religious and religions feel that marriage is sacred in a religious sense.   You could include Christian, Jewish, and Muslim in those categories.  Marriage is bigger than just a government construct.  

mspart

No disagreement whatsoever.  Wow!

[Paul158]

5 minutes ago, mspart said:

Ultimately, this is correct.   Any marriage conducted by a religious person (pastor, bishop, etc) has to have sanction from the state to do so.   And all such must be submitted to the state for recognition.   No different that a Justice o peace. 

But on the other hand, many religious and religions feel that marriage is sacred in a religious sense.   You could include Christian, Jewish, and Muslim in those categories.  Marriage is bigger than just a government construct.  

mspart

Amen to that.

[WrestlingRasta]

2 hours ago, jross said:

What do American's mean when they say they are conservative?  (see link for list).  I share these views from that list:

• Yes: 1, 2, 5, 8-10, 14-21
• No: 4, 6, 7, 11
• Part: 3, 12, 13

As a conservative, I support that America is an exceptional nation but it has no rightful role as leader of the free world.  I seek out the broader knowledge of America's past and have mentioned such with references to the book 'lies my teacher told me.'  

Further, I've been told that conservatives are assholes that have no emotion, so how could their central emotion be aggrievement? 

Pretty cool link and interesting ‘quiz’.  I think two things of note when people read it: it was written in 2012. Things have shifted a little;  the writer points out it’s not a definition of conservatism, but a collection of what individuals feel it means to be conservative.  Good stuff 

[mspart]

5 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

No disagreement whatsoever.  Wow!

I never thunk I'd see it done.  Wow is right! 

mspart

[Husker_Du]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Those that lead the conservative movement are interested in shrinking government so much so that public education is no longer a viable option. 

lol

[Husker_Du]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

If you had any examples to site, that would be handy. But considering you didn't include any, if seems as if you can't because they don't exist or you won't because you just can't be bothered. Which tells me the amount of conviction you have with this conversation. 

i literally gave an example in that post.

Ukraine. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

17 hours ago, Paul158 said:

Conservatives are very generous of the giving of their money and their time . They are very willing to do volunteer work. 

Based on what?

[ThreePointTakedown]

18 hours ago, jross said:

Some non-conservatives scream out 'VIOLENCE' if they are 'misgendered.'  

Open minded is respecting the traditional word 'marriage' is religious and acknowledging a solution like 'civil union' rather than forcing dictionary updates on the conservative 'bad' people.  But open minded is also accepting a new definition of marriage, against one's wishes, because it is what a minority wants.

Open and Close minded people everywhere depending on which perspective you look from.

Nutty people everywhere.

Ok. We've gotten in trouble for speaking in generalities. 

Some NC's might do that, I tend to disagree with you there. But if they do, there might be a reason and we shouldn't paint with a broad brush to make ourselves feel better, as easy as that might be to do. But misgendering a person on purpose is disrespectful and a bullying tactic that shouldn't be tolerated. If you can call someone by their name you can refer to them the way they want to be referred. Mistakes are made, but correct them. 

No one has ever answered the question of how a same sex marriage effects their non-same sex marriage? I'd love to have that conversation. Not likely though. 

Its not a minority. It is the VAST and growing majority. You are the one swimming upstream now. Changing your mind on this topic effects you and everyone else, not one bit. Except you want to hold your breath and kick the wall that someone is making you do a think you just don't wanna do. Imagine a world where marriage means everyone gets to have it? Its not that bad. If you can't think of it, Grow up!

Excusing your closemindedness away is a bad look. You're giving up. Fine, then stop bringing it up and go sulk in peace.  Come back when you want to rejoin society. We'll be here with updates for you to take in, as always. 

They are everywhere and doing their darndest to drag us backwards because they can't or don't want to keep up. 

[uncle bernard]

19 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

i literally gave an example in that post.

Ukraine. 

You and all conservative media freaked out about Biden pulling out of Afghanistan and now you're going to pretend they're the peace party compared to the democrats??? lol 

[Husker_Du]

how disingenuous. the right didn't freak out over pulling out of afghanistan; the freaked out at the process which was an all time screw up.

you have been criticizing the US military on these boards all over the place. some i find justified (and frankly i thank you for posting about them b/c i was unaware of some situations).

but you don't want to criticize the Afghan pull out? 

from every objective standpoint it was a giant screw up.

[Paul158]

2 hours ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Based on what?

Based on ( more not all) democrats would rather have the government use tax money to help people than to just go next door to your neighbor to give them groceries, help with the kids, fix or repair something, you know just use common sense ( yes i said it ) Common Sense. 

[Paul158]

19 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

You and all conservative media freaked out about Biden pulling out of Afghanistan and now you're going to pretend they're the peace party compared to the democrats??? lol 

Really!!!

[uncle bernard]

4 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

how disingenuous. the right didn't freak out over pulling out of afghanistan; the freaked out at the process which was an all time screw up.

you have been criticizing the US military on these boards all over the place. some i find justified (and frankly i thank you for posting about them b/c i was unaware of some situations).

but you don't want to criticize the Afghan pull out? 

from every objective standpoint it was a giant screw up.

there was no "good" way to pull out of Afghanistan because we spent 20 years installing a corrupt puppet government that didn't have the support of the people. 

Biden pulling out and taking the heat of the unavoidable collapse was the most courageous thing he's done his entire life.