Reminder - mat side weigh ins are the way to go

[bnwtwg]

Just wanted to remind everyone after 5 pages that while this is a very noble idea and I wish it would be implemented, all it would lead to is young kids working out for 45-60 minute prior to their match to make weight. American youth sports does not have the culture to support this endeavor successfully.

Every time I hear this idea, which is indeed great on paper, I think to myself “What would Brent Metcalf do? And what will the psycho dad make his kids do even though they are nowhere near that level and can barely make sectionals, much less state, much less wrestle in college? At least now after he sucks them out they can get rehydrated before smashing their still-developing bodies into oblivion.”

We can’t even get a match limit for kids for crying out loud. Follow the Sanderson-Askren-Eastern world model: minimal competition, don’t focus on weight, focus on practice. The results speak for themselves.

Edited October 25, 2023 by bnwtwg
Sp rehydrated autocorrect

[nhs67]

JB still has the trump card (no pun intended) in that there is no data supporting matside weigh-ins being a better route as well as rules will not change unless there is data to support it.

I am interested at seeing appropriate responses to that.

[BobDole]

21 hours ago, skandar said:

How can something have tangible “practice” or data to support it when it’s never been done? With that logic the world should never do anything new.

The best way to prove it is to run some tournaments/duals with mat-side weigh-ins. There is no rule that you can't do that to show how great(or bad) matside weigh-ins are.

[ionel]

5 minutes ago, BobDole said:

The best way to prove it is to run some tournaments/duals with mat-side weigh-ins. There is no rule that you can't do that to show how great(or bad) matside weigh-ins are.

Iowa v Penn St dual this year, if it works there ... 

[Idaho]

11 minutes ago, BobDole said:

The best way to prove it is to run some tournaments/duals with mat-side weigh-ins. There is no rule that you can't do that to show how great(or bad) matside weigh-ins are.

So, how many tournaments and duals do you need to run at each age level to get valid results? How do you measure the data to show if it is a good idea or not?  How many wrestlers at higher levels would say, "yeah let's keep mat side with no recovery time " versus "Nah, let's go back to two hours recovery time after weigh ins." ? 

[BobDole]

8 minutes ago, Idaho said:

So, how many tournaments and duals do you need to run at each age level to get valid results? How do you measure the data to show if it is a good idea or not?  How many wrestlers at higher levels would say, "yeah let's keep mat side with no recovery time " versus "Nah, let's go back to two hours recovery time after weigh ins." ? 

I'm a dead senator, not a research specialist!

[nhs67]

23 minutes ago, ionel said:

Iowa v Penn St dual this year, if it works there ... 

Oh Matside for that?  That would be awesome.  I would be all for that one.

[ionel]

14 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Oh Matside for that?  That would be awesome.  I would be all for that one.

Tommie & Carl say ddm so they should be fine with it. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

22 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

Firstly, rules don't get changed without data to back them up.

As far as the discussion point - If we have so many people ardently supporting something that actually hasn't been done, I'm asking HOW does that happen? Where's the support for something that isn't in use. I was asking to see if we had use cases, since I don't see every tournament, but I've been to enough over the last 28 years and not once time have I seen it. So that's why I'm asking. How can something that hasn't been used actually fix something? 

This Hibojibbo can keep bugs from hitting your windshield, let's put it on all cars. Ok, where can I see a Hibojibbo? 

The supporting data is that dangerous and unhealthy weight cutting exists and should be mitigated. Matside weigh-ins would be a means to test a hypothesis and see if it has an effect on the data around weight cutting. 

Similarly, there was no data to back up 3 point takedowns, but there was evidence that there needs to be more scoring and action. So the rules were changed to allow a 3 point TD, and now we'll see if that moves the needle on the scoring data.

I don't see why the sport can't pilot matside weigh-ins, be it for a season, a preseason tournament, or a month of duals, and see if it's a rule worth implementing fully? Either way, it would put the debate to rest.

[Jason Bryant]

7 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

I don't see why the sport can't pilot matside weigh-ins, be it for a season, a preseason tournament, or a month of duals, and see if it's a rule worth implementing fully? Either way, it would put the debate to rest.

This is what I was hoping someone would say. Pilot it somewhere, but back to my initial statement, I've heard this bantered about for almost 30 years and at best, it's only been a message board topic. Why hasn't this been piloted? That's the next question. 

[Plasmodium]

I'd like to see a trial tournament as well.  I think it could run seamlessly if somebody ran old school  staging and the wrestlers couldn't get their bout sheet without stepping on a scale.

[bnwtwg]

14 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Oh Matside for that?  That would be awesome.  I would be all for that one.

Only if they aren’t allowed to do anything other than a generic warmup prior to the match. Otherwise see my point above.

[bnwtwg]

Just now, bnwtwg said:

Only if they aren’t allowed to do anything other than a generic warmup prior to the match. Otherwise see my point above.

Oh, never mind, that runs into my initial psycho parent counterpoint. Le sigh

[Jim L]

23 hours ago, nhs67 said:

JB still has the trump card (no pun intended) in that there is no data supporting matside weigh-ins being a better route as well as rules will not change unless there is data to support it.

I am interested at seeing appropriate responses to that.

Why doesn't the data point that this is done all the time at large BJJ tournaments count?

It shows the logistics could work.

And a few pilot tournaments will not change the attitude of wrestlers about cutting weight.  I see this throughout this thread. Wrestlers are going to working out/not eating etc. because they all will be close to weight and need to constantly monitor their weight.

I know would be a big change and I think it would take years for wrestling to change the basic practices that are part of out sport. To me it makes sense that off season tournaments start doing this, especially the big ones which will be required if we want to see change

[Alces Alces Gigas]

At the college level, many of the teams have changed the extreme cutting mindset and many wrestlers are talking about it as well.    The basic practices are evolving slowly but surely.    We don't see the drawn in zombie like face we used to see back in the 80s and the plastics and spit cups are few and far between 

[ionel]

16 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

The supporting data is that dangerous and unhealthy weight cutting exists and should be mitigated. Matside weigh-ins would be a means to test a hypothesis and see if it has an effect on the data around weight cutting. 

Where is the supporting data?  And what happens when all the fans see a wrestler(s) pass out or go into cardiac arrest right there on the mat cause they weren't hydrated pre match.  Sure it could work but there might be other bigger issues. Give all an extra lb and test it in a dual first, we don't need to see the tournament till have tried in a major dual meet.

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, Jim L said:

Why doesn't the data point that this is done all the time at large BJJ tournaments count?

It shows the logistics could work.

And a few pilot tournaments will not change the attitude of wrestlers about cutting weight.  I see this throughout this thread. Wrestlers are going to working out/not eating etc. because they all will be close to weight and need to constantly monitor their weight.

I know would be a big change and I think it would take years for wrestling to change the basic practices that are part of out sport. To me it makes sense that off season tournaments start doing this, especially the big ones which will be required if we want to see change

Because BJJ =/= wrestling and the 'powers that be' like to stick their noses up to it.  BJJ has a huge black eye due to their lack of PED testing and it being known that most of the high level gents publicly use right now (see Ryan, Gordon).  That in itself might make it so those 'powers that be' stick their noses up to it.  Add in that they have no sort of weight management system aside for that and only that and it becomes much more of a nightmare, logistically.

I am all for trying it.  I think it would be cool.  I also think that nobody who actually matters things there is anything wrong with the current system.

[nhs67]

48 minutes ago, ionel said:

Where is the supporting data?  And what happens when all the fans see a wrestler(s) pass out or go into cardiac arrest right there on the mat cause they weren't hydrated pre match.  Sure it could work but there might be other bigger issues. Give all an extra lb and test it in a dual first, we don't need to see the tournament till have tried in a major dual meet.

- First wrestler to pass out loses (duh)
- This will happen
- This might actually be a reason that they wouldn't even consider it as well

[Idaho]

18 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

he supporting data is that dangerous and unhealthy weight cutting exists and should be mitigated. Matside weigh-ins would be a means to test a hypothesis and see if it has an effect on the data around weight cutting. 

Can you share the data you have post weight certification and descent rules. 

[Jim L]

4 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Because BJJ =/= wrestling and the 'powers that be' like to stick their noses up to it.  BJJ has a huge black eye due to their lack of PED testing and it being known that most of the high level gents publicly use right now (see Ryan, Gordon).  That in itself might make it so those 'powers that be' stick their noses up to it.  Add in that they have no sort of weight management system aside for that and only that and it becomes much more of a nightmare, logistically.

I am all for trying it.  I think it would be cool.  I also think that nobody who actually matters things there is anything wrong with the current system.

I agree with all you say, but to say that because there are problems with the sport, everything even remotely related to sport is suspect, seems silly to me.

The thing, I think we should take from a BJJ tournament is that the logistics of weighing a lot of competitors in quickly and immediately before their competition can work.

Also that brackets can be completed quickly and this addresses the issue of multiple weigh-ins  and also has the benefits of not having wrestlers/parents spending 12+ hours in a gym on a Saturday.

[nhs67]

53 minutes ago, Jim L said:

I agree with all you say, but to say that because there are problems with the sport, everything even remotely related to sport is suspect, seems silly to me.

The thing, I think we should take from a BJJ tournament is that the logistics of weighing a lot of competitors in quickly and immediately before their competition can work.

Also that brackets can be completed quickly and this addresses the issue of multiple weigh-ins  and also has the benefits of not having wrestlers/parents spending 12+ hours in a gym on a Saturday.

Then how do you solve some 15 year olds weighing in five times and their opponent only having to weigh in three?  If it isn't fair it won't be considered.

I agree about the BJJ aspects.  You have to consider who is determining these things, though.  Not someone like yourself who can focus on the good benefits.  They will look at the worst, squeeky wheel things as well and use it for justification.

[Jim L]

2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Then how do you solve some 15 year olds weighing in five times and their opponent only having to weigh in three?  If it isn't fair it won't be considered.

I agree about the BJJ aspects.  You have to consider who is determining these things, though.  Not someone like yourself who can focus on the good benefits.  They will look at the worst, squeeky wheel things as well and use it for justification.

One weigh-in per day and then all the matches follow quickly after. How fast do the Olympics/WC go through the brackets to determine finalists? Two hours? It can be done.

[Dark Energy]

Piloting would need to be the way.  Clearly some challenges to be worked through.  I’d like to see the sport give it a try.  
 

And to the person that is demanding evidence of success of the change before trying the change … great logic.  Tell that to all inventors, explorers, the founding fathers, etc.  Sometimes good ideas and the people that support them rely on logic and solid hypothesis to give something a try — even when lacking in data saying it will clearly work.

[JVStateChamp]

12 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

And to the person that is demanding evidence of success of the change before trying the change … great logic.  Tell that to all inventors, explorers, the founding fathers, etc.  Sometimes good ideas and the people that support them rely on logic and solid hypothesis to give something a try — even when lacking in data saying it will clearly work.

I interpreted his point of view as believing that before the NCAA or powers that implement anything including mat-side weigh-ins, they need some evidence or data that it will benefit the sport. So I believe to gain that data you must start it on a smaller scale before jumping the gun on mat-side weigh-ins. 

I also am in the belief that mat-side weigh-ins can clearly work, but what evidence is there that it would be beneficial to the sport from an athlete's perspective as well as a logistics and spectator perspective? It is clear that this is a more difficult matter than it may seem and needs to be treated as such.  

[Dark Energy]

As I mentioned, piloting makes sense.  But more for working out kinks.

Regarding the data … the pilot would need to be very robust and long lasting to show impacts on behavior changes.  Hard to do for one region and not do for others.  
 

Thoughts on how the pilot would work?  
 

Feel other changes to rules also require piloting and data collection and evaluation?  Has this been done for other wrestling (or other sport) rule changes?   When NFL puts in more rules with aim of reducing injuries to quarterbacks is there a detailed pilot with extensive data collection?

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Dark Energy