Reminder - mat side weigh ins are the way to go

[Dark Energy]

I’m open to approaches for a tourney.  I think another weigh in for placement matches makes sense.  
 

For 2 day tourneys - You tell me how it could best work.  I bet you can come up with some pretty good ideas.

These logistic quibbles are just that, quibbles.  Not breaking any laws of physics.  This can be done.

 

[Jim L]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

So the guy who earned the higher seed to get the bye shouldn't get the benefit of a bye now?  Won't happen.

These two sports are grappling sports.  I see the similarity there.  From there you get pretty far apart, though.  PED use is rampant to a very deep level in BJJ/ADCC tournaments.  Especially the higher up and more serious you go.  You're going to have to come up with a better example than one that compares a clean sport to an unclean one, because those guys use all sorts of shit to get on weight beforehand.

Almost everyone at the typical BJJ tournaments is clean as there are typically 1000+ "hobby" level guys v. the few dozen elite athletes and psycho MMA wannabes.

I would guess the "local" BJJ tournament is cleaner than the an international wrestling tournament.

 

[Jim L]

57 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

I’m open to approaches for a tourney.  I think another weigh in for placement matches makes sense.  
 

For 2 day tourneys - You tell me how it could best work.  I bet you can come up with some pretty good ideas.

These logistic quibbles are just that, quibbles.  Not breaking any laws of physics.  This can be done.

 

 A second day "mat-side" weigh-ins can work for two days tournaments as well with no time for recovery. One weigh-in per day with the matches following immediately after weigh-in

[JVStateChamp]

3 minutes ago, Jim L said:

 A second day "mat-side" weigh-ins can work for two days tournaments as well with no time for recovery. One weigh-in per day with the matches following immediately after weigh-in

Not arguing that this could definitely work. Considering that they are wrestling or supposed to be wrestling at their natural weight is it safe to assume then there would not be a pound allowance for the second day weigh in? 

[Jim L]

5 minutes ago, JVStateChamp said:

Not arguing that this could definitely work. Considering that they are wrestling or supposed to be wrestling at their natural weight is it safe to assume then there would not be a pound allowance for the second day weigh in? 

I would say yes.  Everything should be about to focusing  on wrestling not weight cutting. One issue that could get a bit tricky is that kids are still growing in HS. Adding 1 to 2 lbs growth allowance by the end of the season seems reasonable.

[neutral]

Mat side weigh ins only make sense for single match duals.  We don't need athletes worrying about trying to make weight in between matches.

[davenowa]

Just a few idea, to facilitate debate/discussion..,

1. Increase all NFHS weight classes by 2 pounds to allow for shoes, headgear etc.

2. Procedures will vary slightly based on dual meet (or multi dual) and for individually bracketed tournaments

3. Dual Meet Procedure

A. Consider locked line ups (but that's a whole different argument for another day and thread...)

B. Weigh in when reporting to table ready to wrestle (scale available prior, including during warm-ups, to check weight)

C. For a dual-meet team tourney or multi dual (ie quad meet), a wrestler can’t compete in more than 2 different weight classes for the event.  Wrestler may compete in class for which qualifies OR may wrestle up 1 (one weight class) above which initial weigh in of the event allows.  Ex:  Wrestler A makes 132 for first dual.  This allows him to wrestle 132 or 138 during event, provided he makes weight for subsequent rounds.  If he does not make 132, he may still wrestle 138, but MAY NOT wrestle 145.  Also, a wrestler may not “go down a weight class” during the course of the dual meet tourney (for instance, if over by a half pound for initial dual weigh-in, can’t proceed to lose weight for subsequent rounds).

D. Weigh ins will be held prior to each round of the dual tourney/multi meet.  Scratch weight for round one, with one additional pound for round #2 and a second additional pound for round #3, up to a 3rd pound for the 4th, 5th and 6th round (maximum number of matches in 1 day per NFHS). In a bracketed team dual, weigh ins on all championship side matches, with 1 extra pound per round (up to a max of 3 pounds), with consi side weigh-ins for rounds that correspond with the quarters/semis/finals, with comparable allowances.

E.  If wrestler who is listed on lineup for that dual does not make weight when called matside, it is a forfeit and that wrestler may not wrestle at a higher weight class in that same dual.  That wrestler may not be replaced by a teammate--it is a forfeit.  If a team lists a wrestler on their match line-up and proceeds to forfeit that weight class (either by failure to make weight or by electing to not wrestle), that forfeit will be worth 7 points (forfeits at weight classes where no wrestler was listed remain 6 points)

4. Individually Bracketed Tournament Procedure

A. Initial matside weigh in prior to each first round match, conducted by the ref. This includes all wrestlers receiving first round byes, who are handled by a tournament official at 1-2 mats, conducted while the first few matches on those mats are taking place.

B. One pound allowance for each subsequent round on the championship side (and the corresponding consolation rounds) such that a 16-man bracket would have 1 extra pound in quarters, another extra pound in semis and 1 more for finals (total of 3), while consi weigh-ins would be required in alternating rounds, with an extra pound, until consi semis and consi finals, each of which requires a weigh in with 1 extra pound (such that 3rd and 5th would be at the same allowance as the finalists). These incremental increases remove the necessity of adding a pound for the 2nd day of a tournament (such that the round of 64 and round of 32 would provide an extra pound or 2).  No more than 3 additional pounds in any 1 day event, nor more than 5 for any 2-day tournament.  

C. Weigh in to take place matside.  Scales at each mat if possible, or between 2 adjacent mats if not enough scales available, as matches rarely end at the same moment in time.  Wrestler failing to make weight on designated scale may make 1 attempt at each other available scale.

D.  Any wrestler failing to make weight for first round is considered a scratched forfeit, and is not permitted to continue in the tournament.

E. Any wrestler failing to make weight for a subsequent championship round match (ie semifinals) or corresponding consi round is considered a forfeit.  Team does not lose all placement points earned for that wrestler (unlike current rules regarding 2nd day weigh in), and wrestler may continue in the tournament if the same “missed weight” is made for next round.  Ex:  Wrestler B fails to make weight for the semifinals.  He drops down to the consi semis, and must make the same weight he was required to make for the championship semis in order to compete in the consi semi round.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

6 minutes ago, davenowa said:

Just a few idea, to facilitate debate/discussion..,

1. Increase all NFHS weight classes by 2 pounds to allow for shoes, headgear etc.

 

No reason to do this, just like there was no reason to raise weights due to undergarments and singlets.  The weights are the weights. (In fact we have three + different sets of weights now)

[nhs67]

First day would be 2nd match mat-side weigh-ins.
Second day would be medal match mat-side weigh-ins.

I could go for this.

If they let themselves get 6-7lbs over for an earlier match then have to cut down for a matside weigh-in later, they are just hurting themselves and their peak performance capability.

[nhs67]

Guy doesn't make a medal and he doesn't have to weigh in on second day.  I am oddly okay with that.

[nhs67]

I maintain that weighing in for every match is unfair, making it stupid and unrealistic - especially at the high school level.

[nhs67]

At the collegiate level, having to make weight every match would also penalize the gent who made the topside semi-finals.  It is often the case that they have much less rest between their semi-final and their consi-semifinal.  That is another reason you see so many semi-slides.

[neutral]

In conclusion.  Mat side weigh in is not a good idea.  And is a bad solution to the weight cutting issue.

[BobDole]

Mat side weigh-ins are not inherently bad, just the logistics of implementing them are pretty daunting.

The end goal is to limit excessive weight-cutting, which I'm sure everyone on here would want in some fashion. Kids are cutting less weight overall and if they are cutting they are doing it in a healthier way. 

In all honesty it's the off-season events that is where the excessive cutting happens. During the regular season coaches and state/national regulations help curb some excessive cutting.

How you regulate a random dad from having his kid cut weight for the local yocal tournament is beyond me. Forcing the ones that do it right to weigh-in 5 times a day is not going to help though.

[ionel]

[MPhillips]

Who among you, 'weighed in' with undergarments and/or  a singlet?

[Formally140]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:34 PM, BobDole said:

Mat side weigh-ins are not inherently bad, just the logistics of implementing them are pretty daunting.

The end goal is to limit excessive weight-cutting, which I'm sure everyone on here would want in some fashion. Kids are cutting less weight overall and if they are cutting they are doing it in a healthier way. 

In all honesty it's the off-season events that is where the excessive cutting happens. During the regular season coaches and state/national regulations help curb some excessive cutting.

How you regulate a random dad from having his kid cut weight for the local yocal tournament is beyond me. Forcing the ones that do it right to weigh-in 5 times a day is not going to help though.

Im fine with them for elementary. But everyone keeps acting like every school has 3000 kids and and the ability to produce numbers that this wouldn’t be detrimental in high school.

Its also hard to take it seriously when most people are like “oh you’re just being old school, ugh you dinosaur”

[D3 for LU]

6 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Im fine with them for elementary. But everyone keeps acting like every school has 3000 kids and and the ability to produce numbers that this wouldn’t be detrimental in high school.

Its also hard to take it seriously when most people are like “oh you’re just being old school, ugh you dinosaur”

D3

[Idaho]

On 10/20/2023 at 9:04 AM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

No reason to do this, just like there was no reason to raise weights due to undergarments and singlets.  The weights are the weights. (In fact we have three + different sets of weights now)

When the NCAA moved all the weights up 7-8 lbs due to unhealthy weight cutting, nobody had to cut weight anymore....

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

26 minutes ago, Idaho said:

When the NCAA moved all the weights up 7-8 lbs due to unhealthy weight cutting, nobody had to cut weight anymore....

exactly

[neutral]

It was a good one season solution.  Pre season weight certs only shift the weight cutting earlier.  Matside weigh ins are only good for first round or for single match duals.  Changing weight cut culture has been an issue as long as any of us remember, but mat side weigh ins are not the solution for multi match tournaments.

[Idaho]

1 hour ago, neutral said:

Pre season weight certs only shift the weight cutting earlier.

There is a difference between "weight cutting" and "weight management"... the difference is now hydration. Prior practices included no hydration rule and literally dehydrating to the point of death (see 1997) . Pre Season certs now have the hydration part of pre-certs. 

[skandar]

On 10/18/2023 at 7:10 AM, Jason Bryant said:

I’ve been around the sport for almost 30 years at this point and I’ve heard “matside weigh ins” thrown around since I got started.

Not once have I ever seen it. I ask this openly to the board, how can something solve a problem when we have next to no tangible practice or data to support it. I hear people clamoring for it, but where does it actually occur?

How can something have tangible “practice” or data to support it when it’s never been done? With that logic the world should never do anything new.

[nick]

2 hours ago, Idaho said:

There is a difference between "weight cutting" and "weight management"... the difference is now hydration. Prior practices included no hydration rule and literally dehydrating to the point of death (see 1997) . Pre Season certs now have the hydration part of pre-certs. 

This

In Indiana, our weight certs get put into a state database and tracked as the season goes on, if you are below the weight for that day, the weigh-in does not count and you need at least six qualifying to compete in the state tournament. It does get enforced when you submit the sectional roster to the state).

It's a pretty easy tool that is color-coded so you can see who has enough and who doesn't, plus the nice little chart of what they can weigh when, As long as your trainer does the initial weight cert correctly then I mean you shouldn't be cutting any major weight 

[Jason Bryant]

4 hours ago, skandar said:

How can something have tangible “practice” or data to support it when it’s never been done? With that logic the world should never do anything new.

Firstly, rules don't get changed without data to back them up.

As far as the discussion point - If we have so many people ardently supporting something that actually hasn't been done, I'm asking HOW does that happen? Where's the support for something that isn't in use. I was asking to see if we had use cases, since I don't see every tournament, but I've been to enough over the last 28 years and not once time have I seen it. So that's why I'm asking. How can something that hasn't been used actually fix something? 

This Hibojibbo can keep bugs from hitting your windshield, let's put it on all cars. Ok, where can I see a Hibojibbo?