Reminder - mat side weigh ins are the way to go

[PencilNeck]

9 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Who is weighing the athletes in while they are on deck?

Probably easy enough to shift one parent volunteer from the concession stand to do the weigh-in table since there will be a lower demand for nachos.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, PencilNeck said:

 

No, really.

Who do you suggest weigh in the individuals?  That is a minimum of six more volunteers or officials for most tournaments.  For that matter, where are we getting six scales?  How do we know they are all calibrated the same? If someone misses on a scale on mat 1, do they get to try on mat 2-6 scales?  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, PencilNeck said:

Probably easy enough to shift one parent volunteer from the concession stand to do the weigh-in table since there will be a lower demand for nachos.

Parent volunteers.  I'm sure they are all CORIed and can be counted on for absolute fairness!

[Jim L]

5 hours ago, Jason Bryant said:

I’ve been around the sport for almost 30 years at this point and I’ve heard “matside weigh ins” thrown around since I got started.

Not once have I ever seen it. I ask this openly to the board, how can something solve a problem when we have next to no tangible practice or data to support it. I hear people clamoring for it, but where does it actually occur?

It is done at very large BJJ tournaments. There are scales available to check weight and then you have one chance to step on the scales to make weight. They do uniform skin and nails check at the same.  You weigh in once per tournaments, but they do the brackets quickly like the Olympic style so matches come quickly.

[davenowa]

regarding state HS weigh in procedures varying almost as much as the new 12/13/14 weight classes, 2023-24 is the first year that NY is not permitting morning "honor" weigh ins (see https://nysphsaa.org/documents/2023/10/16//HandbookAndAutoQualifierChanges_2023_24.pdf?id=3284.  )

While MA has moved away from those as well, they do continue to afford an extra 2 pounds for school-day matches.  MA also does not require dehydration/body fat analysis (body fat test encouraged, but not required, as physician can circle any minimum weight class after checking for a pulse). see https://miaa.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/2023-24-MIAA-Minimum-Weight-Control-Certificate.pdf

I am guessing other states have some of their own quirky variances that circumvent the intent of the certification process and descent rules (ie average weekly weight loss vs monitored weekly descent).  I also believe that the current "growth allowance" rule often works against the descent rule, and would encourage standardization of states allowing a minimum weight class to be based on scratch weights prior to the 2-lb growth (and would also therefore suggest that growth allowance be such that 2 pounds is added after Christmas, another pound around Jan 15 and yet another at start of post-season.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, davenowa said:

regarding state HS weigh in procedures varying almost as much as the new 12/13/14 weight classes, 2023-24 is the first year that NY is not permitting morning "honor" weigh ins (see https://nysphsaa.org/documents/2023/10/16//HandbookAndAutoQualifierChanges_2023_24.pdf?id=3284.  )

While MA has moved away from those as well, they do continue to afford an extra 2 pounds for school-day matches.  MA also does not require dehydration/body fat analysis (body fat test encouraged, but not required, as physician can circle any minimum weight class after checking for a pulse). see https://miaa.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/2023-24-MIAA-Minimum-Weight-Control-Certificate.pdf

I am guessing other states have some of their own quirky variances that circumvent the intent of the certification process and descent rules (ie average weekly weight loss vs monitored weekly descent).  I also believe that the current "growth allowance" rule often works against the descent rule, and would encourage standardization of states allowing a minimum weight class to be based on scratch weights prior to the 2-lb growth (and would also therefore suggest that growth allowance be such that 2 pounds is added after Christmas, another pound around Jan 15 and yet another at start of post-season.

I was talking to some CT wrestlers down in NC, and they were saying that they use the "growth allowance" to drop to a lower weight!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 minutes ago, Jim L said:

It is done at very large BJJ tournaments. There are scales available to check weight and then you have one chance to step on the scales to make weight. They do uniform skin and nails check at the same.  You weigh in once per tournaments, but they do the brackets quickly like the Olympic style so matches come quickly.

I'm not a fan, but this is way better than doing it every round.

[BobDole]

Having kid monitor their weight to weigh in multiple times a day is a scary thought. We are talking about teenagers or youth kids who should be enjoying themselves between matches, not worrying about drinking too much water after a match.

That kind of stuff causes extreme eating disorders.

On top of that, if you want to run kids and parents out of the sport this is exactly the way to do it. No one should be forced to make weight multiple times during the day.

[Jim L]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I'm not a fan, but this is way better than doing it every round.

The key to make this work is that the rounds come so quickly that there no time to rehydrate and refuel. Weight classes finish on their own and there is no finals round.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 minutes ago, Jim L said:

The key to make this work is that the rounds come so quickly that there no time to rehydrate and refuel. Weight classes finish on their own and there is no finals round.

And I assume the entire weight class is on the same mat using the same scale?

[davenowa]

yes, CT (as does NY this year) currently allows a minimum weight certification to permit a weight class after the Dec 25 growth allowance (ie descent allows athlete to reach 115 but not 113...they may go 115 after Dec 25).  however, CT still requires 1/3 of weigh-ins at min wt class attempting to compete in post-season (such that it prevents a descent plan from allowing a kid to reach 115 for the last dual of the season...and then entering that weight for state series).

[Jim L]

2 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Having kid monitor their weight to weigh in multiple times a day is a scary thought. We are talking about teenagers or youth kids who should be enjoying themselves between matches, not worrying about drinking too much water after a match.

That kind of stuff causes extreme eating disorders.

On top of that, if you want to run kids and parents out of the sport this is exactly the way to do it. No one should be forced to make weight multiple times during the day.

I think that this is the old mind set. If you are wrestling in at your walking around weight there is no worrying at all about monitoring weight or even what you are eating drinking the night before.  Much easier to enjoy yourself before, between and after matches.

Many of the issues people have with matside weigh-ins are based on the theory that wrestlers will be cutting weight in the same manner and they will still be looking to drop down weight classes thinking they will be bigger/stronger than their opponents (or at least the same as their opponent who is also cutting weight)

If matside weigh-ins don't drastically change wrestling's attitude toward weight management, there is no point in doing it.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, davenowa said:

yes, CT (as does NY this year) currently allows a minimum weight certification to permit a weight class after the Dec 25 growth allowance (ie descent allows athlete to reach 115 but not 113...they may go 115 after Dec 25).  however, CT still requires 1/3 of weigh-ins at min wt class attempting to compete in post-season (such that it prevents a descent plan from allowing a kid to reach 115 for the last dual of the season...and then entering that weight for state series).

Thanks.  Still very much against the "spirit of the rule" for "growth allowance."  More like "shrink allowance."

[Jim L]

2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

And I assume the entire weight class is on the same mat using the same scale?

One scale for all the mats (up to 16 mats is typical) You wiegh-in when your weight class is on deck.

[Formally140]

4 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Not a fan of this idea.  I think it creates some messes and is not as spectator friendly as some may think.

We just cut high school weight classes in many states, largely because of "too many forfeits."  Matside weigh-ins would increase the number of forfeits.

Some have even suggested weighing in for every round of a tournament or a quad.  This would be an absolute disaster with kids worried about every bite of feed or drop of water.  The number of kids making multiple weight checks per hour would be absurd.

I am also a guy who cut a ton of weight and did not let my son do it.  I am mostly opposed to weight cutting.  However stepping on a scale once per day is plenty.  I don't mind making it closer to match time (30 minutes?), but matside would be a mess.

this
If people want teams to forfeit more and make their programs look like not supporting.. do mat side weigh ins

After all. It’s Better that coach at a difficult school only be able to fill 4 weights than 8

[Formally140]

6 minutes ago, Jim L said:

I think that this is the old mind set. If you are wrestling in at your walking around weight there is no worrying at all about monitoring weight or even what you are eating drinking the night before.  Much easier to enjoy yourself before, between and after matches.

Many of the issues people have with matside weigh-ins are based on the theory that wrestlers will be cutting weight in the same manner and they will still be looking to drop down weight classes thinking they will be bigger/stronger than their opponents (or at least the same as their opponent who is also cutting weight)

If matside weigh-ins don't drastically change wrestling's attitude toward weight management, there is no point in doing it.

No. The biggest problem will be that you’ll have teams filling less weights..

forfeiting more because instead of doing hour before weigh ins that let a kids who’s a fluffy 185 healthily manage to 175. or if I have two kids who weigh 142.. I should forfeit 138 instead of one kid doing the proper things to make 138 and be healthy.
 

A problem that 90% a youth wrestling issue because that’s where 90% of the bad stuff occurs

For example, the board of the organization that runs youth wrestling in my state..  literally had half the coaches derail the meeting because of they were mad 10 year old “state” would have 3 weigh ins not 2.. 

I will take the argument for mat side weigh-ins for youth. Though I always offend people by how I don’t overrate elementary “success”. 

For high school.. no I can’t take any arguments seriously.. you’re just going to make it even harder for the coaches trying to build programs. Not every coach has the luxury of open enrollment or 3000 kids or an established wrestling culture 

 

[Jim L]

8 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

this
If people want teams to forfeit more and make their programs look like not supporting.. do mat side weigh ins

After all. It’s Better that coach at a difficult school only be able to fill 4 weights than 8

There ways to minimize this.  If no one is cutting weight (or there is no advantage to it) bumping up a weight class will not be a big deal.  Many tournaments already allow multiple entries per school, making this the standard would be better for a marginal school rather than having 4 wrestlers take on the extra misery of cutting weight

[Jim L]

1 minute ago, Formally140 said:

No. The biggest problem will be that you’ll have teams filling less weights..

forfeiting more because instead of doing hour before weigh ins that let a kids who’s a fluffy 185 healthily manage to 175. or if I have two kids who weigh 142.. I should forfeit 138 instead of one kid doing the proper things to make 138 and be healthy.
 

A problem that 90% a youth wrestling issue because that’s where 90% of the bad stuff occurs

For example, the board of the organization that runs youth wrestling in my state..  literally had half the coaches derail the meeting because of they were mad 10 year old “state” would have 3 weigh ins not 2.. 

I will take the argument for mat side weigh-ins for youth. Though I always offend people by how I don’t overrate elementary “success”. 

For high school.. no I can’t take any arguments seriously.. you’re just going to make it even harder for the coaches trying to build programs. Not every coach has the luxury of open enrollment or 3000 kids or an established wrestling culture 

 

I believe less weight cutting will help build programs, it is the worst part of wrestling and  taking away the advantage will be better for the sport.  I came from a non-wrestling family and I had to hide my weight cutting from my parents as the concept of HS athletes not eating healthy meals 3x a day was not something they understood 

[Formally140]

Just now, Jim L said:

I believe less weight cutting will help build programs, it is the worst part of wrestling and  taking away the advantage will be better for the sport.  I came from a non-wrestling family and I had to hide my weight cutting from my parents as the concept of HS athletes not eating healthy meals 3x a day was not something they understood 

The type of coach encouraging unhealthy cutting isn’t building programs anymore 9/10

[gimpeltf]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Who is weighing the athletes in while they are on deck?

 

1 hour ago, PencilNeck said:

 

I don't know - 

[PencilNeck]

16 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

 

I don't know - 

I don't know is working mat 3.

[Jim L]

22 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

The type of coach encouraging unhealthy cutting isn’t building programs anymore 9/10

That is good to hear.  I am not closely involved with youth/HS wrestling anymore. Being old school though, it is hard for me to believe that HS kids aren't doing the unhealthy cutting and hiding it from their coach/family.

[nhs67]

2 hours ago, PencilNeck said:

don't lose the first round of a tournament if you don't want to be making weight that many times. 

also, remember that now everyone is presumable wrestling at a more natural weight, so making weight shouldn't really be a chore at this point.

Having kids weigh in a different amount of times throughout the day(s) as well as with varying times between weigh-ins will never gain traction - nor should it.

It isn't fair to ask a kid to potentially weigh in three times within a 65 minute span, where one might be weighing in once in that space... and it is asking too much of these kids in tournaments where they are already beating themselves raw physically.

You think defaulting out and pitch counting is a problem now?  It will be a much larger problem then.

[nhs67]

35 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

The type of coach encouraging unhealthy cutting isn’t building programs anymore 9/10

Someone is going to bring up OSU soon to attempt to counter this, then include their certification 'weights' as a basis of this - despite the date(s) not being listed for certification(s).

Mark my words...

[BobDole]

40 minutes ago, Jim L said:

I think that this is the old mind set. If you are wrestling in at your walking around weight there is no worrying at all about monitoring weight or even what you are eating drinking the night before.  Much easier to enjoy yourself before, between and after matches.

Many of the issues people have with matside weigh-ins are based on the theory that wrestlers will be cutting weight in the same manner and they will still be looking to drop down weight classes thinking they will be bigger/stronger than their opponents (or at least the same as their opponent who is also cutting weight)

If matside weigh-ins don't drastically change wrestling's attitude toward weight management, there is no point in doing it.

It's not about wrestling at your natural weight, it's how much your weight can fluctuate throughout the day. On top of that you're engaged in a physically demanding sport every hour. Now after a tough match you have to be aware of how much water/gatorade you have on top of preparing for battle.

As a coach now you would need to monitor those kids that are naturally close all day long on top of coaching and dealing with the crazy parents.