Off Topic: Russia Out...Again.

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

According to this article, 65 countries boycotted the 1980 Olympics in Moscow:

https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/sports-columns/ron-kantowski/1980-olympic-boycott-still-stings-wrestlers/

There are bitter feelings about that boycott to this day, as Lee Kemp can confirm.   



    In 1984, a vengeful counter-boycott of around 14 countries took place during the summer Olympics in Los Angeles (including Cuba, East Germany and the U.S.S.R.):

 https://olympics.com/en/olympic-games/los-angeles-1984

Nevertheless, around 140 nations participated in '84, which was (at the time) an all-time record.    
   
     In the initial article, above, Lee Kemp points out the (for him painful) irony of how we eventually occupied Afghanistan for longer than the U.S.S.R. did and yet we didn't boycott our own Olympics or do anything like that.   
 
     A criticism I've seen over the decades regarding the two Olympic boycotts of the modern era involves how such international events encourage dialogue and greater mutual understanding.   That said, I don't think Vlad Putin could be swayed by such diplomatic outreach, do you?   The U.S.S.R. cracked and dissolved within a dozen years after the 1980 boycott, too.    Evidently its citizenry didn't trust or like the dictatorship government, and productivity was consequently out-the-window.    

    I can't say that I oppose disqualifying the Russians from the Olympics nowadays.   But there are tradeoffs to doing so.    At least in 1984, both groups held their own Olympics.  I.e. the U.S.S.R. held competitions anyway, as did the so-called "free world".   

     Any thoughts?

Edited October 12, 2023 by TitleIX is ripe for reform

[WrestlingRasta]

2 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

I object (nearly unconditionally) to national politics playing any role whatsoever in international sporting events.  Boycotts in 1980 and 1984 changed no national policies anywhere but hurt the athletes tremendously.  South Africa's athletes paid a huge price for virtue signalling of no useful consequence.

The (illogical) next step will be to disallow a country's athletes to participate over pronouns and bathroom privileges and carbon credits.  Because, you know, the earth is at stake.

While there may be no good answer to the "international community" signalling disapproval of a specific country's actions and policies banning athlete participation in competitions is definitely THE bad answer.

I agree with pretty much all of this, but I personally apply an asterisks. 
 

The Russian government, military, and Olympic federation are all closely tied and intertwined with one another. To add to that, that relationship has a long history of…..basically going directly against the will and spirit of the Olympic charter, in whatever manner they deem fit. If this were one isolated incident, and didn’t include that long history, what you’ve said above would be everything for me personally. 
 

But unfortunately that couldn’t be further from the case. 

[Jim L]

11 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

...  South Africa's athletes paid a huge price for virtue signalling of no useful consequence.

 

I have heard that the cultural isolation of South Africa (along with economic sanctions) was a significant in the end of apartheid. Even if this is not true, mentioning the "huge price" S. African athletes paid while not mentioning the suffering of millions live their lives under apartheid is little weird to say the least.

And calling a coordinated international campaign making South Africa a pariah nation "virtue signaling" is also making light of the evils of apartheid 

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

I've been told that South Africa was largely barren and occupied until the Europeans went there and colonized the place.   Then some opportunists arrived and demanded freebies of the colonists' descendants.   I've also been told that South Africa was not so barren and unoccupied when the Europeans arrived, but that there was a lot of unoccupied land available.    With the ever-increasing influx of undocumented immigrants coming to the USA and demanding freebies, this sort of analysis will be worth revisiting as time progresses.     

[Wrestleknownothing]

6 minutes ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

I've been told that South Africa was largely barren and occupied until the Europeans went there and colonized the place.   Then some opportunists arrived and demanded freebies of the colonists' descendants.   I've also been told that South Africa was not so barren and unoccupied when the Europeans arrived, but that there was a lot of unoccupied land available.    With the ever-increasing influx of undocumented immigrants coming to the USA and demanding freebies, this sort of analysis will be worth revisiting as time progresses.     

You have also been told how stupid many of your takes are, but you do not seem to quote that. Rationalizing apartheid by implying if it wasn't for us white folks your lives would be worse than under apartheid, is the height of stupid.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Wrestleknownothing

[Lipdrag]

Punishing individual athletes does not make a nation a pariah.  Nor does competing with those athletes imply any approval of his/her home country's internal or international actions.  It is a huge price for an individual to pay when your options are to rescind your citizenship and place of birth or not compete.  

[Jim L]

1 hour ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

I've been told that South Africa was largely barren and occupied until the Europeans went there and colonized the place.   Then some opportunists arrived and demanded freebies of the colonists' descendants.   I've also been told that South Africa was not so barren and unoccupied when the Europeans arrived, but that there was a lot of unoccupied land available.    With the ever-increasing influx of undocumented immigrants coming to the USA and demanding freebies, this sort of analysis will be worth revisiting as time progresses.     

Wow.  Historical bad take

[Jim L]

1 hour ago, Lipdrag said:

Punishing individual athletes does not make a nation a pariah.  Nor does competing with those athletes imply any approval of his/her home country's internal or international actions.  It is a huge price for an individual to pay when your options are to rescind your citizenship and place of birth or not compete.  

I have to assume that you are not old enough to remember what South African was under apartheid, .

Individual South African athletes were not punished the entire country was. Exceptions were not made for athletes and yes the entire country was made a pariah.

Once again, you have a warped sense of perspective if you are focused on the "huge price" an athlete may pay relvative to brutally repressed millions

 

 

[Lipdrag]

Nothing warped about my perspective.  Straight and true.  Just different from yours. 

Punishing the whole for the transgressions of one or few is collective punishment and generally considered immoral.  Punishing individuals who were born into a situation and have no ability to affect it by running or not running a 1500 meter race is also generally considered immoral.  Nothing warped about that perspective.  Yours may be different but, if so, please be consistent and insist that China be banned from all international forums (sporting and otherwise) and refuse to use anything made there in your daily life.  Live your perspective.

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

1 hour ago, Jim L said:

Wow.  Historical bad take

Are you sure about that?   The Koi and the San peoples (now reportedly heavily discriminated against by the Zulu) were supposedly the first humans in South Africa (even before the Europeans).   It seems that the Zulu took over and ran off the whites with their anti-apartheid campaign, only to mistreat the Koi and San peoples during the aftermath.  At any rate, the Koi and San peoples were reportedly not that abundant in South Africa when the Europeans reached it.   

    Meanwhile the following has been published online and I've not yet seen it successfully refuted:

"No pre-contact sub-Saharan African society ever created a written language, weaved cloth, invented the wheel or plow, or devised a calendar or system of measurement or complex math (arithmetic, algebra or geometry), built a multi-story structure, bridge or road or railway or ship, domesticated animals, exploited underground natural resources nor produced anything that could be considered a mechanical device until White colonizers did it for them. In sub-Saharan Africa the only countries that could be considered successful were White-governed, (Rhodesia and S. Africa). To this day they still can't even feed themselves even though they lived alone in Africa, a vast continent with temperate climates and abundant resources, for 60,000 years. So, they cannot blame racism, poverty, imperialism or anything else for their failures.”

I can provide the source upon request.    

    Meanwhile there's a narrative floating around in certain political circles (which love going after free money) that problems in Africa are the so-called white race's fault, and that whites owe reparations throughout the world.  And then there are others who are puzzled about how forgetful some folks are:

 Isn't it remarkable how well blacks were doing in the USA as recently as the 1950s, before LBJ's New Deal (intentionally & conveniently) created so many dependents?

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/03/the_decline_of_the_africanamerican_family.html

   Personally, probably my favorite NCAA D1 wrestling coach of all time is Bobby Douglas (whose ASU Sun Devils won it all in '88, marking the only time any NCAA D1 national team title was won west of the Rockies).   He went on to produce Carl, albeit from Ames.    I'm impressed by pioneering achievement & progress, not pigmentation.    As MLK said, we should judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.    Affirmative Action's become increasingly illegal in the USA so it's time to stop trying to encourage divisiveness & dependence.   Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has the courage to speak out and wager his political future on it.   There are some wrestlers here who would do the same.  But they're a quiet majority because others here would jump at the chance to call 'em racist, in part so they can feel less guilty about having drunk the kool aid for so long.   Such kool-aid drinkers are the real racists though, IMHO.     You hate Justice Thomas (who grew up impoverished in Georgia) for thinking and saying stuff independently of what you think he should be allowed to say.   

  
Welcome to the 21st Century....
    

Edited October 12, 2023 by TitleIX is ripe for reform

[Wrestleknownothing]

2 hours ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

I've been told that South Africa was largely barren and occupied until the Europeans went there and colonized the place.   Then some opportunists arrived and demanded freebies of the colonists' descendants.   I've also been told that South Africa was not so barren and unoccupied when the Europeans arrived, but that there was a lot of unoccupied land available.    With the ever-increasing influx of undocumented immigrants coming to the USA and demanding freebies, this sort of analysis will be worth revisiting as time progresses.     

Oh, and you should read Born A Crime

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

I'm glad to see that Patricia survived being shot and that her son learned to navigate the serious tribalism problem that plagues South Africa (and probably always has).   Hopefully the upcoming autobiography movie about him will be grounded in truth.   

[neutral]

Go take your maga ism over to the off topic thread.

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

In this thread about boycotting Russia, someone brought up South Africa and racism as justifications for boycotts.  In response, I put forth the effort to retrieve & share some assertions that have been submitted as facts by third parties.    If only the MAGA crew does that, then that's not speaking well of other political factions, is it?     That said, I'm proud of South Sudan for maintaining its strong wrestling tradition even after seceding and forming a new country.   If only South Africa would embrace wrestling more.   And if only Russia would let Ukraine have the freedom it wants.   But admittedly the dissolution of the USSR 30+ years ago was done with haste.  Still, the Ukrainians who would prefer to be with Russia could peacefully secede or otherwise relocate, couldn't they?   I don't approve of Putin's murderous "solution," do you?      

[pokemonster]

6 hours ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

Are you sure about that?   The Koi and the San peoples (now reportedly heavily discriminated against by the Zulu) were supposedly the first humans in South Africa (even before the Europeans).   It seems that the Zulu took over and ran off the whites with their anti-apartheid campaign, only to mistreat the Koi and San peoples during the aftermath.  At any rate, the Koi and San peoples were reportedly not that abundant in South Africa when the Europeans reached it.   

    Meanwhile the following has been published online and I've not yet seen it successfully refuted:

"No pre-contact sub-Saharan African society ever created a written language, weaved cloth, invented the wheel or plow, or devised a calendar or system of measurement or complex math (arithmetic, algebra or geometry), built a multi-story structure, bridge or road or railway or ship, domesticated animals, exploited underground natural resources nor produced anything that could be considered a mechanical device until White colonizers did it for them. In sub-Saharan Africa the only countries that could be considered successful were White-governed, (Rhodesia and S. Africa). To this day they still can't even feed themselves even though they lived alone in Africa, a vast continent with temperate climates and abundant resources, for 60,000 years. So, they cannot blame racism, poverty, imperialism or anything else for their failures.”

I can provide the source upon request.    

    Meanwhile there's a narrative floating around in certain political circles (which love going after free money) that problems in Africa are the so-called white race's fault, and that whites owe reparations throughout the world.  And then there are others who are puzzled about how forgetful some folks are:

 Isn't it remarkable how well blacks were doing in the USA as recently as the 1950s, before LBJ's New Deal (intentionally & conveniently) created so many dependents?

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/03/the_decline_of_the_africanamerican_family.html

   Personally, probably my favorite NCAA D1 wrestling coach of all time is Bobby Douglas (whose ASU Sun Devils won it all in '88, marking the only time any NCAA D1 national team title was won west of the Rockies).   He went on to produce Carl, albeit from Ames.    I'm impressed by pioneering achievement & progress, not pigmentation.    As MLK said, we should judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.    Affirmative Action's become increasingly illegal in the USA so it's time to stop trying to encourage divisiveness & dependence.   Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has the courage to speak out and wager his political future on it.   There are some wrestlers here who would do the same.  But they're a quiet majority because others here would jump at the chance to call 'em racist, in part so they can feel less guilty about having drunk the kool aid for so long.   Such kool-aid drinkers are the real racists though, IMHO.     You hate Justice Thomas (who grew up impoverished in Georgia) for thinking and saying stuff independently of what you think he should be allowed to say.   

  
Welcome to the 21st Century....
    

First you write pages blaming rape victims, now you're saying Africans should be thankful for the colonizers who oppressed them because they made their lives better? Something is not right in your head. 

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

I blamed rape victims?   Saying what, precisely, and where?   As for "colonizers who oppressed them"... if your neighbors, whose residency in your neighborhood predates yours, restrict you from being on their property, is that oppression?   If you get to drink water and enjoy cable-based internet and t.v. because they cleared the way for it all without your help before you arrived, is that oppression?   When Gov. Ron DeSantis says this sort of stuff, do you have a similar knee-jerk response to him, saying someting's not right in his head?   If you disagree with someone and they say there's something that's not right in your head, are they correct?   Enquiring minds wanna know.   But not that much, so if you choose not to reply meaningfully, I'll neither be disappointed nor surprised.        

[bnwtwg]

@BobDole plz halp

[AgaveMaria]

My favorite African American is from South Africa. Charlize Theron.

My favorite movie about South Africa is THE BANG BANG CLUB.

Edited October 13, 2023 by AgaveMaria

[BobDole]

7 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

@BobDole plz halp

I'm letting him dig his own grave here. He has been banned from other boards for *surprisingly* racist comments.

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, BobDole said:

I'm letting him dig his own grave here. He has been banned from other boards for *surprisingly* racist comments.

[Wrestleknownothing]

12 hours ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

I blamed rape victims?   Saying what, precisely, and where?   As for "colonizers who oppressed them"... if your neighbors, whose residency in your neighborhood predates yours, restrict you from being on their property, is that oppression?   If you get to drink water and enjoy cable-based internet and t.v. because they cleared the way for it all without your help before you arrived, is that oppression?   When Gov. Ron DeSantis says this sort of stuff, do you have a similar knee-jerk response to him, saying someting's not right in his head?   If you disagree with someone and they say there's something that's not right in your head, are they correct?   Enquiring minds wanna know.   But not that much, so if you choose not to reply meaningfully, I'll neither be disappointed nor surprised.        

Your attempts to minimize institutionalized racism are absolutely racist. Your refusal to accept this neither disappoints me nor surprises me. You are the worst attempted ambassador for wrestling possible. You do more harm than good by mixing your abhorrent views on rape and racism with support for wrestling. If you really want to support wrestling you should go away and stop attempting to advocate for wrestling. It is a concept know as addition through subtraction.

[nhs67]

19 hours ago, neutral said:

Go take your maga ism over to the off topic thread.

I have Maga-ism.

I am black.

You don't need to also associate racism there.

What he's doing and saying is quite different and quite evil.

[nhs67]

I feel I must apologize to @Ban Basketball.  While I like going back and forth with you, it isn't anything derived in hate or even down that path.  It is more just... differing opinions and our keyboards make us think we have the biggest D... I am going to concede to you on the 'bet' because at the end of the day I know we're both fans of the sport and I don't actually believe you're a bad person.

This other cunt up here, though... H.F.S.

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

This thread's about whether or not Russian wrestling should be boycotted based on what's been going on in Ukraine.  As I recalled the disappointment of one of my teenage wrestling heroes regarding the 1980 boycott of the Moscow Olympics (Lee Kemp), and as I've discussed policy issues with Jimmy Carter in person, I participated in this thread.   The discussion was expanded by someone (not me) regarding sanctions involving South Africa.   

So according to the vocal minority (not the silent majority) here, not drinking the anti-European colonist Kool-Aid about who is (supposedly) really to blame for 60 thousand years of (still ongoing) malaise in sub-Saharan Africa = racism?   Wow.     And to address a nonrelevant criticism raised by a member of that vocal minority in this thread, not drinking the Kool-Aid about whether or not to second guess allegations made against women & men regarding sexual assault supposedly = abhorrent?   Wow.     No wonder so many parents refrain from advising their children to wrestle.   Why should it be different?   It's not like amateur wrestling's community lacks people who eagerly jump aboard bandwagons with conclusory accusations and self-righteous proclamations that don't withstand intellectual scrutiny very well.   Phony allegations of racism and sexism are not foreign to the amateur wrestling community, so what's so special about the sport?

Ron DeSantis has outlasted his critic Will Hurd (who recently abandoned his own presidential campaign) because Ron stands for societal unity through open debate and acceptance of folks with opposing views.    Will is featured at the end of this brief video, which was recently produced before Will abandoned his presidential bid.   
 

        Florida lacks NCAA D1 wrestling, unlike during yesteryear.   Why should Florida's leaders pursue reinstating it, when some in the community advocate censorship and cancelation of those disagreeing with them?    

[BobDole]

59 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Your attempts to minimize institutionalized racism are absolutely racist. Your refusal to accept this neither disappoints me nor surprises me. You are the worst attempted ambassador for wrestling possible. You do more harm than good by mixing your abhorrent views on rape and racism with support for wrestling. If you really want to support wrestling you should go away and stop attempting to advocate for wrestling. It is a concept know as addition through subtraction.

Don't worry he just doubled down on his takes.