nhs67 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 52 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: Nope. It has been going on for years. I have been asked many times through the years "why isn't it a winter sport?" No snow or ice. You have never beat the coach to the practice room and it shows. Many snow-ball fights happened. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 The thinking that the US mandates wrestling around the world is thick in here: 20 hours ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said: Move wrestling to the Winter Olympics. The Olympics are always looking for favorable publicity. What you have here is a natural winter sport switching over to compete ... in the Winter. I will say again, the world does not revolve around the USA’s high school and college schedule. 19 hours ago, nhs67 said: I think we are closer to seeing Greco dropped from the Olympics… Is it UWW’s recent move to put Greco as the last event so it is the weekend highlight at world/continental events that led you to believe this….or is it that USA isn’t medaling so it’s probably on its way out? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said: The thinking that the US mandates wrestling around the world is thick in here: I will say again, the world does not revolve around the USA’s high school and college schedule. I actually apologized for saying this in a prior post. I still think it would be cool... but even so... we heard your peace. I agreed with you on it, in the end - as it were. 2 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said: Is it UWW’s recent move to put Greco as the last event so it is the weekend highlight at world/continental events that led you to believe this….or is it that USA isn’t medaling so it’s probably on its way out? It is because there is a Men's and Women's Freestyle and only a Men's Greco. They aren't going to add Women's Greco. Why don't you quite the entire post rather than select what you want to piss and moan about. When you do that all you are doing is whinging. Bitching to bitch. 1 "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, nhs67 said: I actually apologized for saying this in a prior post. I still think it would be cool... but even so... we heard your peace. I agreed with you on it, in the end - as it were. It is because there is a Men's and Women's Freestyle and only a Men's Greco. They aren't going to add Women's Greco. Why don't you quite the entire post rather than select what you want to piss and moan about. When you do that all you are doing is whinging. Bitching to bitch. Because that part of your post was the only one relative to my point, which is that Americans opinion of Greco is not that of the world. It’s not like I was trying to hide what you said. It’s there in print for everyone to see If I were just ‘bitching to bitch” (I don’t know what whinging means) I would have continued on to talk about how you obviously have no understanding why different weights in Greco and freestyle makes perfect sense (from a world perspective, not a US folkstyle perspective), but that’s not my point here. Was Trying to keep it on point…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said: Because that part of your post was the only one relative to my point, which is that Americans opinion of Greco is not that of the world. It’s not like I was trying to hide what you said. It’s there in print for everyone to see If I were just ‘bitching to bitch” (I don’t know what whinging means) I would have continued on to talk about how you obviously have no understanding why different weights in Greco and freestyle makes perfect sense (from a world perspective, not a US folkstyle perspective), but that’s not my point here. Was Trying to keep it on point…. I would love to be educated on this. Please explain. Whinging literally means 'bitching to bitch' so well done there. Also, you selectively picked what you picked to whing - by definition. That is what you did. It's there for everyone to see. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, nhs67 said: I would love to be educated on this. Please explain. Whinging literally means 'bitching to bitch' so well done there. Also, you selectively picked what you picked to whing - by definition. That is what you did. It's there for everyone to see. You are correct. I selectively picked the point of topic I was on, I did not include bitching about the whole post just to bitch. You got me Edited October 12, 2023 by WrestlingRasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 7 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said: You are correct. I selectively picked the point of topic I was on, I did not include bitching about the whole post just to bitch. You got me Can you focus on the first part of that post? I want to know why it makes more sense to have different weights. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 1 minute ago, nhs67 said: Can you focus on the first part of that post? I want to know why it makes more sense to have different weights. You first have to take off the folkstyle hammered USA glasses.... What's one thing we talk about alot over here on this side of the pond, in disappointment? Tweeners. Guys that have really good skills and talents but their bodies are in between optimal sizes to compete at their highest level. So we have the Zain's, etc of the nation who only have the option of changing their body, during their bodies peak development time, every year or couple years because their skills don't leave them other options. Now let's move on to the rest of the world, where both international styles largely hold equal value, in fact in many areas greco holding a higher value. Those populations are largely proficient in both styles, because that's what they have been doing their whole life. And when they reach maturity, they have styles to choose from based on what their body is, not the other way around. From a world perspective, different weight classes give more individuals the opportunity to compete at their highest level. From a US perspective, different weight classes is pretty much irrelevant because we alienated greco at the grassroots level. And when we did, we cut our medal count potential each year basically in half. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said: You first have to take off the folkstyle hammered USA glasses.... What's one thing we talk about alot over here on this side of the pond, in disappointment? Tweeners. Guys that have really good skills and talents but their bodies are in between optimal sizes to compete at their highest level. So we have the Zain's, etc of the nation who only have the option of changing their body, during their bodies peak development time, every year or couple years because their skills don't leave them other options. Now let's move on to the rest of the world, where both international styles largely hold equal value, in fact in many areas greco holding a higher value. Those populations are largely proficient in both styles, because that's what they have been doing their whole life. And when they reach maturity, they have styles to choose from based on what their body is, not the other way around. From a world perspective, different weight classes give more individuals the opportunity to compete at their highest level. From a US perspective, different weight classes is pretty much irrelevant because we alienated greco at the grassroots level. And when we did, we cut our medal count potential each year basically in half. Sold! Keep it the way it is, then. My thinking has always been to combine the weights to be the same and then change our collegiate weight classes to mirror those of the International styles. That way we can get more in to Greco. That said, I see what you're saying now. 55, 57, 60, 61, 63, 65, 67, 70, 72, 74, 77, 79, 82, 86, 87, 92, 97, 97, 125, 130 Wouldn't this then make more sense from a 'Tweener' standpoint? I do wish it would scale up linearly for each style... which means I am now whinging... 55, 57, 59, 61, 63, 65, 67, 69, 71, 74, 77, 80, 83, 86, 89, 92, 95, 98, 125, 130 Meaning: 55 - 57 59 - 61 63 - 65 67 - 69 71 - 74 77 - 80 83 - 86 89 - 92 96 - 100 125 - 130 Pick left for FS or GR and right for the other. 1 "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lipdrag Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 4 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: Please! Can we stop with the wrestling moving to the Winter Olympics? It will never happen! Since when are we constrained by reality on this forum? Don't be a hater. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 On 10/10/2023 at 3:30 PM, mspart said: There was also Wrestling and Track and Field events in 1896, just like ancient times to which I was referring. The modern Olympics were inspired by the ancient Olympics. Hence my reference to wrestling being an original sport in the Olympics. When they get rid of original sports that were competed in the ancient Olympics, then the modern Olympics is no longer worthy of the name, in my opinion. mspart The wrestling done in the ancient Olympics was vastly different from both FS and Greco. Greco does not have ancient tradition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 3 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said: You first have to take off the folkstyle hammered USA glasses.... What's one thing we talk about alot over here on this side of the pond, in disappointment? Tweeners. Guys that have really good skills and talents but their bodies are in between optimal sizes to compete at their highest level. So we have the Zain's, etc of the nation who only have the option of changing their body, during their bodies peak development time, every year or couple years because their skills don't leave them other options. Now let's move on to the rest of the world, where both international styles largely hold equal value, in fact in many areas greco holding a higher value. Those populations are largely proficient in both styles, because that's what they have been doing their whole life. And when they reach maturity, they have styles to choose from based on what their body is, not the other way around. From a world perspective, different weight classes give more individuals the opportunity to compete at their highest level. From a US perspective, different weight classes is pretty much irrelevant because we alienated greco at the grassroots level. And when we did, we cut our medal count potential each year basically in half. In the countries with the biggest fan bases - US, Iran and Russia (probably India as well), Greco is much less popular than FS. there are a good number of countries in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia (and maybe some Ex-Soviet) that Greco appears to be the favorite style, but I have never seen a convincing argument that Greco is more popular worldwide than FS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 14 minutes ago, Jim L said: In the countries with the biggest fan bases - US, Iran and Russia (probably India as well), Greco is much less popular than FS. there are a good number of countries in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia (and maybe some Ex-Soviet) that Greco appears to be the favorite style, but I have never seen a convincing argument that Greco is more popular worldwide than FS The actual numbers prove it. We've been through this several times over the last decade. I haven't looked at this year's Worlds, however a year or three ago someone took all the numbers that were traceable from the prior entire cycle (or two?) and Greco had the most overall participants every year. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 26 minutes ago, Jim L said: In the countries with the biggest fan bases - US, Iran and Russia (probably India as well), Greco is much less popular than FS. there are a good number of countries in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia (and maybe some Ex-Soviet) that Greco appears to be the favorite style, but I have never seen a convincing argument that Greco is more popular worldwide than FS Have to agree to disagree with you there, don’t really want to go search copy and paste etc. Historically, popularity in Iran for Greco has not matched Freestyle, very much true. However Iran has made an investment into Greco relatively recently, their success is way up as is it’s popularity in the country. FS/GR is very regional in russia. I guess one could look at historical entry numbers in Russian nationals and see where they fall. As a collective whole, world wide….there is plenty of good ‘argument’ out there of its level of popularity. Don’t really know what else to say without taking the time to link it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, nhs67 said: The actual numbers prove it. We've been through this several times over the last decade. I haven't looked at this year's Worlds, however a year or three ago someone took all the numbers that were traceable from the prior entire cycle (or two?) and Greco had the most overall participants every year. Also read blogger talking about last worlds he was at, ‘19 which also was the last worlds/Olympics without and international crisis…..Greco ticket sales sold out prior to the event, FS tickets were available at the door. Small anecdote, but does say something. Edit to acknowledge it could also be bullshit. I personally haven’t seen those numbers. Edited October 12, 2023 by WrestlingRasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILLINIWrestlingBlog Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 Speaking of expendable sports, the Winter Olympics is comprised--almost entirely--of expendable sports. Besides figure skating, skiing (I guess) and hockey, everything else is trash. Curling? Biathlon? Nordic Combined? Sledding? Freestyle Skiing? Snowboarding? Snow Angels? (not a real Olympic sport). All trash. Did you know that there are only 31 sites in the entire United States where you can practice ski jumping? How many times have you gotten into an argument with somebody and decided to settle it by Ski Jumping? On the other hand, there are over 10,000 high schools in America with a wrestling team. There are another 400 college teams. The IOC needs to add a real Winter sport to their program: Wrestling. And so the revolution begins: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, ILLINIWrestlingBlog said: Speaking of expendable sports, the Winter Olympics is comprised--almost entirely--of expendable sports. Besides figure skating, skiing (I guess) and hockey, everything else is trash. Curling? Biathlon? Nordic Combined? Sledding? Freestyle Skiing? Snowboarding? Snow Angels? (not a real Olympic sport). All trash. Did you know that there are only 31 sites in the entire United States where you can practice ski jumping? How many times have you gotten into an argument with somebody and decided to settle it by Ski Jumping? On the other hand, there are over 10,000 high schools in America with a wrestling team. There are another 400 college teams. The IOC needs to add a real Winter sport to their program: Wrestling. And so the revolution begins: Can you make my skin more dark? I am far too white there (meaning I am not white at all). Also, love it! 1 "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 1 hour ago, nhs67 said: The actual numbers prove it. We've been through this several times over the last decade. I haven't looked at this year's Worlds, however a year or three ago someone took all the numbers that were traceable from the prior entire cycle (or two?) and Greco had the most overall participants every year. I see have seen the numbers quoted and they don't convince me. That there are a good amount of small nations that send GR athletes to a WC does not make it a more popular style throughout the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, Jim L said: I see have seen the numbers quoted and they don't convince me. That there are a good amount of small nations that send GR athletes to a WC does not make it a more popular style throughout the world. Just out of curiosity, what would be convincing if overall participation numbers is not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 20 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said: Just out of curiosity, what would be convincing if overall participation numbers is not? Yeah seems a bit odd. 25 minutes ago, Jim L said: I see have seen the numbers quoted and they don't convince me. That there are a good amount of small nations that send GR athletes to a WC does not make it a more popular style throughout the world. If you have seen them then you also know that the numbers that were used weren't only from WC but were from every UWW event in that time span that put on WFS, MFS, and MGR. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 48 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said: Just out of curiosity, what would be convincing if overall participation numbers is not? Overall number of of people actually doing the sport would be (this is vastly different from the number of entries in a world championship) Also the number of people attending events for each sport would be convincing, This is different that the number of attendees at a 5 day WC event Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Jim L said: Overall number of of people actually doing the sport would be (this is vastly different from the number of entries in a world championship) Also the number of people attending events for each sport would be convincing, This is different that the number of attendees at a 5 day WC event So what about those numbers at international events that are not world championships. What about numbers at different nations national events. Tournaments specifically not the world championships have been referenced as well. Isn’t that all indicative? Those numbers are available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 28 minutes ago, nhs67 said: Yeah seems a bit odd. If you have seen them then you also know that the numbers that were used weren't only from WC but were from every UWW event in that time span that put on WFS, MFS, and MGR. Again using entry numbers world level events do not reflect that sports overall popularity in a country. For example, US Judo sends as many entries to the Judo Worlds as they do for Men's FS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim L Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 1 minute ago, WrestlingRasta said: What about numbers at different nations national events. ... I have not seen those numbers, they could be partially convincing. BTW, I do believe that GR is the most popular sport in some countries and could be convinced that it is more popular, I just have not seen good evidence that it is and this seems to be a widely accepted assumption. To be fair, other times this has been discussed on the boards LJB was involved and I got tired of his schtick and tuned out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingRasta Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jim L said: I have not seen those numbers, they could be partially convincing. BTW, I do believe that GR is the most popular sport in some countries and could be convinced that it is more popular, I just have not seen good evidence that it is and this seems to be a widely accepted assumption. To be fair, other times this has been discussed on the boards LJB was involved and I got tired of his schtick and tuned out The information is available. Fair question, what numbers have you seen on an international/world level scale that have had you convinced otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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