Israel Attacked

[Husker_Du]

13 hours ago, Le duke said:

This is like people who claim “Biden gave Iran six billion dollars! They attacked Israel with it!”.

Well, no, we released six billion dollars of Iran’s own money to a fund, held in Qatar, and administered by the US Department of the Treasury, that allows them to purchase humanitarian aid supplies as approved by the US. Which, to date, has had $0.00 withdrawn from it.


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Qatar, you say?

 

 

[uncle bernard]

On 10/15/2023 at 8:09 PM, Bigbrog said:

Let's let this resonate here..."The US is the biggest support of Islamic terror groups in the world"  WTF!!!! 

And someone agrees with that statement...yikes!

Got to love the internet

 

Some examples: 

Direct: 

Funding, arming, and training the Mujahadeen to fight the Soviets. They became Al Qaeda.

Funding and supporting Saudi Arabia, the world's #1 sponsor of terror (and perpetrators of 9/11)

Funding and arming the Syrian rebels against Assad (secular). These rebels were Islamist fighters with large overlap with ISIS. That's where most of the weapons ended up.

Funding Libyan Islamist groups against Gadhafi (secular)

Funding Hamas in the 1980s - this was done by Israel, but Israel is a US client-state and you can be sure we were involved here.

Indirect: 

1953 Iranian Coup - admitted to by the CIA -reinstallation of the autocratic Shah and overthrow of Iranian democracy - directly led to the Islamic Revolution 30ish years later and the boon of Islamic Terror. Many consider this the original sin in the current Middle East situation.

2003 Iraq invasion - destabilized the region, put millions of young military aged men out of work and gave them a reason to hate the west (hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths). This became the starting point for ISIS.

Special treatment of Israeli contravention of International Law - strong recruiting tool for Islamist groups. US routinely uses its special veto to stop UN sanctions of Israeli violations of International Law. These resolutions usually have near unanimous consent other than the US and occasionally the UK.

[uncle bernard]

12 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

Qatar, you say?

 

 

What are you mad about? Qatar and the US are not releasing the money to Iran right now. The money itself is a South Korean payment to Iran for oil. Even the released money (if it does get released eventually) will not be held in accounts controlled by the Iranian government.

 

[uncle bernard]

15 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

what's your point?

it's demonstrably true.

someone can be a bad person but also be accurate on a lot of stuff.

but go ahead and stomp your feet if it makes you feel better. 

same reason you voted for biden. 

Can you give an example of something Alex Jones was right about? Not denying that it exists, I'm just curious which stuff you think is true.

[uncle bernard]

It seems like we all hate Islamic Terror, but nobody wants to reckon with our government's role in creating it, either through direct funding or its actions in the region. It didn't come out of nowhere. It arose out of specific historical conditions that we played a part in.

If I leave a can of gasoline next to an open flame, I can't pretend I wasn't involved when it blows.

[Husker_Du]

yes, i understand all that.

the US should certainly be more responsible about what become the remnants of conflict and their support of it.

but blaming the US for 9/11 or what's currently going on in israel is, well, ridiculous. 

'sponsor terrorism'

?

stop. 

[uncle bernard]

3 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

yes, i understand all that.

the US should certainly be more responsible about what become the remnants of conflict and their support of it.

but blaming the US for 9/11 or what's currently going on in israel is, well, ridiculous. 

'sponsor terrorism'

?

stop. 

What would you call giving millions of dollars and weapons to Islamist extremist groups if not "sponsor?" Because that's a matter of public record.

[Plasmodium]

10 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

yes, i understand all that.

the US should certainly be more responsible about what become the remnants of conflict and their support of it.

but blaming the US for 9/11 or what's currently going on in israel is, well, ridiculous. 

'sponsor terrorism'

?

stop. 

What does this mean, if not an accusation of sponsoring terrorism?

15 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

btw. our government just gave $100m to a terror organization.

great stuff. 

 

[Ban Basketball]

44 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Some examples: 

Direct: 

Funding, arming, and training the Mujahadeen to fight the Soviets. They became Al Qaeda.

Funding and supporting Saudi Arabia, the world's #1 sponsor of terror (and perpetrators of 9/11)

Funding and arming the Syrian rebels against Assad (secular). These rebels were Islamist fighters with large overlap with ISIS. That's where most of the weapons ended up.

Funding Libyan Islamist groups against Gadhafi (secular)

Funding Hamas in the 1980s - this was done by Israel, but Israel is a US client-state and you can be sure we were involved here.

Indirect: 

1953 Iranian Coup - admitted to by the CIA -reinstallation of the autocratic Shah and overthrow of Iranian democracy - directly led to the Islamic Revolution 30ish years later and the boon of Islamic Terror. Many consider this the original sin in the current Middle East situation.

2003 Iraq invasion - destabilized the region, put millions of young military aged men out of work and gave them a reason to hate the west (hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths). This became the starting point for ISIS.

Special treatment of Israeli contravention of International Law - strong recruiting tool for Islamist groups. US routinely uses its special veto to stop UN sanctions of Israeli violations of International Law. These resolutions usually have near unanimous consent other than the US and occasionally the UK.

I'd add another direct one: funding the Contra rebels in the 80's.

[uncle bernard]

Just now, Ban Basketball said:

I'd add another direct one: funding the Contra rebels in the 80's.

Oh yeah, the list gets way longer if you don't limit it to strictly Islamist terror. Throw a dart at a map of South America and you'll likely hit a country we paid and trained mass-murdering terror groups in. And people wonder why the region is a disaster and people are willing to walk a 1000 miles to get here?

[Offthemat]

It’s not that elements of our government, whether by our consent, supported or trained anyone, it’s the terms terrorists and terrorism that are arguable.  One man’s freedom fighter being another man’s terrorist, and all. 

[uncle bernard]

4 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

It’s not that elements of our government, whether by our consent, supported or trained anyone, it’s the terms terrorists and terrorism that are arguable.  One man’s freedom fighter being another man’s terrorist, and all. 

Now apply that to Palestine

[Offthemat]

4 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Now apply that to Palestine

That’s part of the delineation i was talking about.  I don’t think you can show that Americans support killing civilians, raping girls, decapitating babies, or burning people alive.  

[Husker_Du]

^^^ that

the point is, America is also, without a doubt (and for better or worse) the most active and supportive of freedom on the planet.

i'm not naive enough to believe there are never ulterior motives, but no one else does more to protect people than the US.

the aftermath is often the problem.

Bernard, you keep pointing to my 'we gave Hamas...' quote as if that's a contradiction.

is the aid needed or not? is it a virtuous offering or is it 'sponsoring terrorism'? will the 'aid' be usurped by Hamas for weapons.

WKN and Le Duke believe it's virtuous. do you? or is it 'sponsoring terrorism'?

[Husker_Du]

so was the hospital bombed or not? or just the parking lot? were there actually casualties? was that 500-1000 number accurate? and what/who was the source of the rocket?

what a clusterF of misinformation/confusion/journalism.

and i'm not even choosing sides. i'm saying all around. 

[Le duke]

Oh yeah, the list gets way longer if you don't limit it to strictly Islamist terror. Throw a dart at a map of South America and you'll likely hit a country we paid and trained mass-murdering terror groups in. And people wonder why the region is a disaster and people are willing to walk a 1000 miles to get here?

I’ve run and ridden a bike past the School of the Americas dozens of times.

Kind of amazing that people don’t know who it produced and that it’s still in operation.


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[Le duke]

^^^ that
the point is, America is also, without a doubt (and for better or worse) the most active and supportive of freedom on the planet.
i'm not naive enough to believe there are never ulterior motives, but no one else does more to protect people than the US.
the aftermath is often the problem.
Bernard, you keep pointing to my 'we gave Hamas...' quote as if that's a contradiction.
is the aid needed or not? is it a virtuous offering or is it 'sponsoring terrorism'? will the 'aid' be usurped by Hamas for weapons.
WKN and Le Duke believe it's virtuous. do you? or is it 'sponsoring terrorism'?

There are many shades of gray along the spectrum between handing out food, water and blankets, to training paramilitary forces (mujahideen, anti-communist forces), to actively aiding in terrorist plots.

This seems to be closer to the first, no?


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[Bigbrog]

1 hour ago, uncle bernard said:

Some examples: 

Direct: 

Funding, arming, and training the Mujahadeen to fight the Soviets. They became Al Qaeda.

Funding and supporting Saudi Arabia, the world's #1 sponsor of terror (and perpetrators of 9/11)

Funding and arming the Syrian rebels against Assad (secular). These rebels were Islamist fighters with large overlap with ISIS. That's where most of the weapons ended up.

Funding Libyan Islamist groups against Gadhafi (secular)

Funding Hamas in the 1980s - this was done by Israel, but Israel is a US client-state and you can be sure we were involved here.

Indirect: 

1953 Iranian Coup - admitted to by the CIA -reinstallation of the autocratic Shah and overthrow of Iranian democracy - directly led to the Islamic Revolution 30ish years later and the boon of Islamic Terror. Many consider this the original sin in the current Middle East situation.

2003 Iraq invasion - destabilized the region, put millions of young military aged men out of work and gave them a reason to hate the west (hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths). This became the starting point for ISIS.

Special treatment of Israeli contravention of International Law - strong recruiting tool for Islamist groups. US routinely uses its special veto to stop UN sanctions of Israeli violations of International Law. These resolutions usually have near unanimous consent other than the US and occasionally the UK.

  You can't be serious?!?!  The irony of it is you reference Alex Jones a post or two later...your posts are on that level.  What you forget to mention in any of this other than your whackadoodle opinion is the context of the moment things happen and the timing of when it happened.  Is the US "stupid" sometimes in how they handle the funding...yes...can the US predict the future as to what is going to happen and who some of these groups turn into or gain alliance with...NO!!   You clearly have skewed views on things and for some reason, like to always paint the US...by far the best country in the world...in the worst possible light by not looking at the whole picture, and then always assuming negative intent and turning that into trying to make direct correlation to the US being the biggest terrorist supporter in the world.  By your words you turn hero's and well intended actions of the US into some of the worst possible things any group or person could do.  Maybe you and ban can get a group rate on the mental health treatment you both clearly need.  

[Ban Basketball]

11 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

  You can't be serious?!?!  The irony of it is you reference Alex Jones a post or two later...your posts are on that level.  What you forget to mention in any of this other than your whackadoodle opinion is the context of the moment things happen and the timing of when it happened.  Is the US "stupid" sometimes in how they handle the funding...yes...can the US predict the future as to what is going to happen and who some of these groups turn into or gain alliance with...NO!!   You clearly have skewed views on things and for some reason, like to always paint the US...by far the best country in the world...in the worst possible light by not looking at the whole picture, and then always assuming negative intent and turning that into trying to make direct correlation to the US being the biggest terrorist supporter in the world.  By your words you turn hero's and well intended actions of the US into some of the worst possible things any group or person could do.  Maybe you and ban can get a group rate on the mental health treatment you both clearly need.  

You absolutely live in an alternate reality. 

So, NONE of what he detailed above happened?

[uncle bernard]

36 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

That’s part of the delineation i was talking about.  I don’t think you can show that Americans support killing civilians, raping girls, decapitating babies, or burning people alive.  

Yet, they literally trained and armed groups who did all those things all through Latin America. Not disputed history.

[uncle bernard]

13 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

  You can't be serious?!?!  The irony of it is you reference Alex Jones a post or two later...your posts are on that level.  What you forget to mention in any of this other than your whackadoodle opinion is the context of the moment things happen and the timing of when it happened.  Is the US "stupid" sometimes in how they handle the funding...yes...can the US predict the future as to what is going to happen and who some of these groups turn into or gain alliance with...NO!!   You clearly have skewed views on things and for some reason, like to always paint the US...by far the best country in the world...in the worst possible light by not looking at the whole picture, and then always assuming negative intent and turning that into trying to make direct correlation to the US being the biggest terrorist supporter in the world.  By your words you turn hero's and well intended actions of the US into some of the worst possible things any group or person could do.  Maybe you and ban can get a group rate on the mental health treatment you both clearly need.  

We give money to groups who are actively committing these crimes. The rebels we funded in Syria were ISIS splinter groups. We knew that at the time, but deemed it was more important to oust Assad.

I'm sorry the reality of what our government does abroad disrupts your fairy tale about our country, but that's not my problem. 

[uncle bernard]

30 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

^^^ that

the point is, America is also, without a doubt (and for better or worse) the most active and supportive of freedom on the planet.

i'm not naive enough to believe there are never ulterior motives, but no one else does more to protect people than the US.

the aftermath is often the problem.

Bernard, you keep pointing to my 'we gave Hamas...' quote as if that's a contradiction.

is the aid needed or not? is it a virtuous offering or is it 'sponsoring terrorism'? will the 'aid' be usurped by Hamas for weapons.

WKN and Le Duke believe it's virtuous. do you? or is it 'sponsoring terrorism'?

For who? You'll find much of the world disagrees with that framing.

As to your quote, I'm making fun of you for disagreeing that our gov. supports terrorism and then turning around and immediately accusing it of supporting terrorism.

I am pleasantly surprised by the aid. It is being handled by the UN. Yes, Hamas fighters will also get food and medicine, but that's necessary to ensure the millions of innocent Palestinians also get it.

There is a big difference between administering food and medicine and arming and training terrorists, which we've done all over the world for 70 years, from the contras and juntas of Latin America to the rebels in Syria to the Saudi government and more.

[uncle bernard]

30 minutes ago, Le duke said:

I’ve run and ridden a bike past the School of the Americas dozens of times.

Kind of amazing that people don’t know who it produced and that it’s still in operation.


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I truly believe if the average American knew what we did down there, it would drastically change our country's politics for the better. There is no clearer example of the misdeeds of our country's foreign policy direction.

Overthrowing democratic governments and murdering civilians to stifle economic development to maintain our political control over the region that not only oppresses the citizens of those countries, but also undermines the power of the American worker at home.

[jross]

14 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

I truly believe if the average American knew what we did down there...

Unfortunately, many Americans DO NOT WANT TO KNOW, and the History books oblige.  

The chart represents Trump and Biden voters who support the statement.
https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/VoV-Presentation-FINAL.pdf

The survey is a real head-scratcher on the percent of people supporting specific topic positions.  Note that 6% more of the 2008 people surveyed leaned Democratic over Republican.

Edited October 19, 2023 by jross

[Wrestleknownothing]

When choosing between the lesser of two evils, you are still choosing evil.