Israel Attacked

[uncle bernard]

 

 

[BerniePragle]

10 hours ago, jross said:

I think this comes from America's indoctrination, as well as the mental shortcuts and cognitive biases that prevent nuanced understanding of different viewpoints, like those shared by @BerniePragle.  

I'm not sure if you were saying that I see different viewpoints, or that I have a different viewpoint.  If the former Thank you, if the latter OK sure, carry on.
This story is perfect for the current climate in our country.   It's the ultimate "Us vs Them" story.  The ultimate "Good Guys vs Bad Guys" story.  Has been for at 2000+ years.  They make the Bloods and the Crips look like recess at the Elementary school.
AGAIN, while the common people are arguing over the issues we're being fed, the rich and powerful are picking our pockets clean.  And our kids, grandkids...  That's all I'm really sure of.  That and if I drop a rock, it goes down.  That's been going on for a lot longer than even this feud.  The Laws of Physics never go out of fashion.

This part of the forum is like a soap opera.   You can not pay attention for 6 months, come back and you haven't missed a thing.  Same cast of characters (a few new ones), same storylines (with a few twists).  Carry on.
 

[Bigbrog]

At least jross "get's" UB's posts because I and others sure do not.

Anyway, as for Muslims being "bad", I don't believe that...just as when other people try to paint people of other faith's as "bad".  The religion isn't the problem...PEOPLE are the problem.  When people are evil and want to rationalize their evil behavior, they TRY and use religion to do so.  People want to bash the religion as being "bad" when in fact no religion is bad (well maybe some of the fringe crap like devil worshiping, etc.) it is the people that are bad.  I also understand the scrutiny of the Muslim faith, and if I was a Muslim I would be absolutely appalled that some terrorist organizations use that as a backdrop for their evil behavior.  Point for all this is I believe people are either good, or bad, or on that spectrum, regardless of their religion.

[uncle bernard]

21 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

At least jross "get's" UB's posts because I and others sure do not.

Anyway, as for Muslims being "bad", I don't believe that...just as when other people try to paint people of other faith's as "bad".  The religion isn't the problem...PEOPLE are the problem.  When people are evil and want to rationalize their evil behavior, they TRY and use religion to do so.  People want to bash the religion as being "bad" when in fact no religion is bad (well maybe some of the fringe crap like devil worshiping, etc.) it is the people that are bad.  I also understand the scrutiny of the Muslim faith, and if I was a Muslim I would be absolutely appalled that some terrorist organizations use that as a backdrop for their evil behavior.  Point for all this is I believe people are either good, or bad, or on that spectrum, regardless of their religion.

Israel should stop bombing a civilian population. The civilian death tolls, confirmed by UN workers, are far higher than other conflicts. They've killed more civilians in one month than Russia has in 2 years of war in Ukraine. There are rules of war and Israel is not following them.

None of this "excuses" Hamas. It's a defense of the innocent civilians caught in the middle. And there's no evidence this campaign is making a dent in Hamas anyway. There are 10k dead and Israel is claiming success in killing 60 important Hamas personnel. That's an unacceptable rate of allowable targets vs. civilian collateral damage. And this doesn't even get into the long-term problems with this approach, which will breed more terrorism and anti-Israel sentiment in the region.

What's so hard to understand? There are millions of people all over the world calling for the same thing. There are Israeli's calling for the same thing.  

[uncle bernard]

36 minutes ago, BerniePragle said:

I'm not sure if you were saying that I see different viewpoints, or that I have a different viewpoint.  If the former Thank you, if the latter OK sure, carry on.
This story is perfect for the current climate in our country.   It's the ultimate "Us vs Them" story.  The ultimate "Good Guys vs Bad Guys" story.  Has been for at 2000+ years.  They make the Bloods and the Crips look like recess at the Elementary school.
AGAIN, while the common people are arguing over the issues we're being fed, the rich and powerful are picking our pockets clean.  And our kids, grandkids...  That's all I'm really sure of.  That and if I drop a rock, it goes down.  That's been going on for a lot longer than even this feud.  The Laws of Physics never go out of fashion.

This part of the forum is like a soap opera.   You can not pay attention for 6 months, come back and you haven't missed a thing.  Same cast of characters (a few new ones), same storylines (with a few twists).  Carry on.
 

I think he meant to tag me

[uncle bernard]

39 minutes ago, Bigbrog said:

At least jross "get's" UB's posts because I and others sure do not.

Anyway, as for Muslims being "bad", I don't believe that...just as when other people try to paint people of other faith's as "bad".  The religion isn't the problem...PEOPLE are the problem.  When people are evil and want to rationalize their evil behavior, they TRY and use religion to do so.  People want to bash the religion as being "bad" when in fact no religion is bad (well maybe some of the fringe crap like devil worshiping, etc.) it is the people that are bad.  I also understand the scrutiny of the Muslim faith, and if I was a Muslim I would be absolutely appalled that some terrorist organizations use that as a backdrop for their evil behavior.  Point for all this is I believe people are either good, or bad, or on that spectrum, regardless of their religion.

really succinct summary here: 

 

 

[Offthemat]

All these points have been made.  Blinken and Biden -weren’t those reindeer - have pled with Bibi to pause.  Bibi said “nah.”   His goal is for IDF to be able to walk through Gaza without being attacked.  The Israelis are fed up with Hamas, who wear civilian clothes and hide behind their wives and children, lobbing rockets and shooting them.  As I said on the first page of this thread, using human shields is not going to be effective this time.  It’s not.  More are realizing this and heading south now.  Hopefully, they’ll separate and maintain distance from Hamas.  The Israelis have made every effort to avoid civilian casualties while maintaining their goal.  If Hamas wants peace they should stop shooting, put down their arms, and release the hostages.  In other words, surrender.  No exchanges, no conditions.  

[uncle bernard]

20 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

All these points have been made.  Blinken and Biden -weren’t those reindeer - have pled with Bibi to pause.  Bibi said “nah.”   His goal is for IDF to be able to walk through Gaza without being attacked.  The Israelis are fed up with Hamas, who wear civilian clothes and hide behind their wives and children, lobbing rockets and shooting them.  As I said on the first page of this thread, using human shields is not going to be effective this time.  It’s not.  More are realizing this and heading south now.  Hopefully, they’ll separate and maintain distance from Hamas.  The Israelis have made every effort to avoid civilian casualties while maintaining their goal.  If Hamas wants peace they should stop shooting, put down their arms, and release the hostages.  In other words, surrender.  No exchanges, no conditions.  

This is totally at odds with everything you wrote before it. 

[Offthemat]

Thousands of Gazans waving white flags head south along IDF evacuation route

 

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-of-gazans-waving-white-flags-head-south-along-idf-evacuation-route/

[mspart]

You mean IDF is assisting the evacuation.   Say it ain't so.   Those devils wouldn't do that would they UB?  Save Gazan's lives?   No it just can't be. 

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-772068

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/gaza-civilian-casualty-criticism-grows-israel/index.html

https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-of-gazans-waving-white-flags-head-south-along-idf-evacuation-route/

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-08-23/h_92f3d64ede6bc0c84af9c0cf2822f7c9

Well it looks like that is what they are doing.    Who does this in war?   No one but Israel.   They don't want to kill indiscriminately like the Palestinians do.  They are showing that by this move to help civilians get out of the area that will soon be under attack.  

If Palestinians would give up their weapons there would be peace. 

If the Israelis would give up their weapons, they would be annihilated.  Golda

mspart

[uncle bernard]

1 hour ago, mspart said:

You mean IDF is assisting the evacuation.   Say it ain't so.   Those devils wouldn't do that would they UB?  Save Gazan's lives?   No it just can't be. 

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-772068

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/gaza-civilian-casualty-criticism-grows-israel/index.html

https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-of-gazans-waving-white-flags-head-south-along-idf-evacuation-route/

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-11-08-23/h_92f3d64ede6bc0c84af9c0cf2822f7c9

Well it looks like that is what they are doing.    Who does this in war?   No one but Israel.   They don't want to kill indiscriminately like the Palestinians do.  They are showing that by this move to help civilians get out of the area that will soon be under attack.  

If Palestinians would give up their weapons there would be peace. 

If the Israelis would give up their weapons, they would be annihilated.  Golda

mspart

hopefully they don't bomb the evacuation route like they've been doing. probably why they're waving the white flags. and hopefully, they don't continue to bomb the safe zones like they've been doing. very good that civilians are getting out of north gaza.

however, will they be allowed to return after the war? if not, what you're seeing isn't an evacuation. it's ethnic cleansing. that is extremely important. israel must allow people to return to their homes if they so choose.

[BerniePragle]

5 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

I think he meant to tag me

@jross and others can corroborate my ability to read and write well enough to not "tag" the wrong person.  A modicum of logic would come to the conclusion that I was responding to jross' mention of me.  Why else would I join this little soiree?

I was wrong when I previously said nothing has changed in this forum.  I think the average IQ has gone down in the 6 months since I was last here.  Sadly it's approaching that of other social media. 

[uncle bernard]

1 minute ago, BerniePragle said:

@jross and others can corroborate my ability to read and write well enough to not "tag" the wrong person.  A modicum of logic would come to the conclusion that I was responding to jross' mention of me.  Why else would I join this little soiree?

I was wrong when I previously said nothing has changed in this forum.  I think the average IQ has gone down in the 6 months since I was last here.  Sadly it's approaching that of other social media. 

you didn’t. he did. you haven’t been participating in this thread. he tagged the wrong bernie. 

[jross]

Embarrassing.

I tagged the wrong Bernie.

It gets worse.

I didn't recognize there was more than one Bernie account.

I've been confused as to why 'Bernie' was posting differently than 'Bernie.'

I was an idiot, and I apologize for being an idiot.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

8 hours ago, BerniePragle said:

I'm not sure if you were saying that I see different viewpoints, or that I have a different viewpoint.  If the former Thank you, if the latter OK sure, carry on.
This story is perfect for the current climate in our country.   It's the ultimate "Us vs Them" story.  The ultimate "Good Guys vs Bad Guys" story.  Has been for at 2000+ years.  They make the Bloods and the Crips look like recess at the Elementary school.
AGAIN, while the common people are arguing over the issues we're being fed, the rich and powerful are picking our pockets clean.  And our kids, grandkids...  That's all I'm really sure of.  That and if I drop a rock, it goes down.  That's been going on for a lot longer than even this feud.  The Laws of Physics never go out of fashion.

This part of the forum is like a soap opera.   You can not pay attention for 6 months, come back and you haven't missed a thing.  Same cast of characters (a few new ones), same storylines (with a few twists).  Carry on.
 

Personally, I chime in out of a sense of responsibility.

When posters spread misinformation, make ridiculous accusations, etc. I am motivated to step in. I think it's important that the 'other side' of the argument is represented - and represented just as strongly as the misinformation is being presented.

Maybe it means nothing. Maybe it's a waste of my time. Maybe just a soap opera.

College wrestling is getting fired up as I type... probably a good time to leave here and get back to wrestling.

Maybe a few more posts as a parting gift.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

9 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

This is utter BS. Just hateful fantasy. Everybody wants Hamas to release the hostages. Hamas itself has offered to release the hostages in exchange for a release of illegally held Palestinian prisoners (the major strategic reason for hostage taking in the first place). Israel has chosen to ignore any diplomatic route to release in favor of bombing Gaza, undoubtedly killing hostages alongside their captors. That's why there are protests by family members of hostages in Israel. 

You call civilian hostage taking "strategic" - it's not strategic, it's disgusting and sub-human. The work of barbaric animals, not of civilized people.

If you're going to comment on something as horrific as hostage taking - maybe at least pretend you have a heart.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

5 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

hopefully they don't bomb the evacuation route like they've been doing. probably why they're waving the white flags. and hopefully, they don't continue to bomb the safe zones like they've been doing. very good that civilians are getting out of north gaza.

The Palestinian civilians will be OK. As long as they don't tolerate terrorists hiding among them. It would be a good time for civilians to start to stand up against the tyrannical Hamas if they find them in their midst on the journey south.

If they do not want to continue to be abused by their own government, at some point they will have to stand up on their own.

Nobody else can do that for them. They must do it for themselves. Israel isn't their enemy.

I hope for nothing but the best for them in a time where the future doesn't look bright.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by GreatWhiteNorth

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Peace ... I'm out.

[uncle bernard]

14 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

You call civilian hostage taking "strategic" - it's not strategic, it's disgusting and sub-human. The work of barbaric animals, not of civilized people.

If you're going to comment on something as horrific as hostage taking - maybe at least pretend you have a heart.

strategies can be evil. you're so insecure in your defense of israel that you have to project evil intentions on anybody who doesn't think bombing gaza is the right response.

[uncle bernard]

quite the reversal from when Joe said he didn't believe the numbers

 

 

[ThreePointTakedown]

14 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

strategies can be evil. you're so insecure in your defense of israel that you have to project evil intentions on anybody who doesn't think bombing gaza is the right response.

As a means to an end it has a track record of not working out well(bombing civilians to get at military targets). 

[Offthemat]

What does anybody think would happen if the IDF marched into Gaza behind hundreds of Israeli civilians?

[uncle bernard]

1 hour ago, Offthemat said:

What does anybody think would happen if the IDF marched into Gaza behind hundreds of Israeli civilians?

Why don't you hold Israel to a higher standard than Hamas? If they want to be considered a civilized country, they have to act like it. That simple.

[mspart]

They are not hiding behind civilians which is a war crime.   They are letting civilian leave in scheduled times every day now, something Hamas did not afford all of the civilians they butchered.   You are just on the wrong side of history here.   Hamas leaders have said they want perpetual war and perpetual martyrs.   They do not want to shield the Gaza civilians, they want them as martyrs.   Now that's a cause you can get behind.

mspart

[Offthemat]

On 11/8/2023 at 10:15 AM, uncle bernard said:

This is utter BS. Just hateful fantasy. Everybody wants Hamas to release the hostages. Hamas itself has offered to release the hostages in exchange for a release of illegally held Palestinian prisoners (the major strategic reason for hostage taking in the first place). Israel has chosen to ignore any diplomatic route to release in favor of bombing Gaza, undoubtedly killing hostages alongside their captors. That's why there are protests by family members of hostages in Israel. 

““Islam denies the universality of the Golden Rule because Islam starts with the division of the entire world, all humanity, into two different groups—Islamic and non-Islamic,” Warner noted. “Every aspect of Islamic ethics is based upon this separation. Having two distinct groups leads to two different ethical codes. Said another way, Islam has dualistic ethics.””

https://www.jns.org/the-golden-rule-makes-political-islam-different/