Hot Seat 2024?

[Wrestleknownothing]

10 minutes ago, BobDole said:

What are reasonable expectations for NIU? Obviously 2 AA's over 20 years isn't good, just curious what you would want to expect from the program.

From 1969 - 1975 (seven years) they had AA's in four of those years. From 1997 - 2004 (eight years) they had AA's in five of those years (6 AA's total).

An AA every other year or so, seems like a reasonable expectation. 

[Caveira]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:42 AM, ionel said:

To relate with the Nelson thread, shouldn't the Brands brothers get the boot?  It was a head coach and assistant, a dad and an uncle that didn't insure Nelson had proper info.  If the athlete gets the boot, shouldn't the coaches also.  However its bigger than wrestling so institutional control, perhaps the AD should be fired. However again, it happensed at both flagship Us - Iowa St and Iowa so I say the Governor should step down,  C'mon Iowans - give her the boot! 

The brothers?  Not far enough.  All family should be banned from carver.  Take their names out of the program.  Send them to jail maybe.   Stop showing brands father in all documentaries or that farmer that was helpful to them when they were young.  I think gable may be implicated next as he coached the brands brothers.  Take his statue down while we’re at it as stalling isn’t called anymore anyhow.  

[Tripnsweep]

7 hours ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

Did Coach Seay really break sufficiently clear rules?  (I ask this sincerely, not rhetorically).   And was his dismissal warranted?   At any rate, may he R.I.P.   

He also was letting guys who were grayshirting practice with the team and giving them money. Frank Trigg said that he had been recruited out of community college and was practicing with the team at Oklahoma State before he ever enrolled. 

[bnwtwg]

6 hours ago, Gantry said:

It's definitely a hurdle but if Central Michigan and Northern Iowa were able to get to that next level with similar issues, there's no reason to think NIU can't get there right the right coaching and recruiting.  I don't think settling for the status quo is what should be done in Dekalb...

You also have to consider that many people in Chicagoland are not originally from the area. Their parents moved for work and as such, their kids are encouraged to explore the same as their parents have done. So even if you want to wrestle, why not do it elsewhere to meet new people and become more worldly? It’s a cultural hurdle to overcome.

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

16 hours ago, Tripnsweep said:

He also was letting guys who were grayshirting practice with the team and giving them money. Frank Trigg said that he had been recruited out of community college and was practicing with the team at Oklahoma State before he ever enrolled. 

Thanks for sharing that info.   I wonder if such behavior was clearly prohibited by the rules, or merely prohibited by bureaucrats who wrote vague regulations (perhaps impermissibly, at that) and who used such vagueness to self-lather in the power of "gotcha!" moments.  More and more people in the USA are taking a stand against such bureaucratic abuses, and the U.S. Supreme Court ("SCOTUS") is admirably backing such a rebellion both in criminal law and (seemingly) in civil disputes, as well. 

In the criminal context, the SCOTUS is applying the rule of lenity which means that if a rule is ambiguous, it must be construed to favor (not harm) the accused.  Here are some of the most recent cases of that... and the "rule of lenity" doctrine is being increasingly embraced by conservatives and Leftists, alike there (and elsewhere):

https://www.scotusblog.com/?s=lenity


Other words one can look up to learn more about this growing opportunity to curtail bureaucratic abuses include:

Textualism, Justice Gorsuch and textualism, & Chevron deference's decline.

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

19 minutes ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

Thanks for sharing that info.   I wonder if such behavior was clearly prohibited by the rules, or merely prohibited by bureaucrats who wrote vague regulations (perhaps impermissibly, at that) and who used such vagueness to self-lather in the power of "gotcha!" moments.  More and more people in the USA are taking a stand against such bureaucratic abuses, and the U.S. Supreme Court ("SCOTUS") is admirably backing such a rebellion both in criminal law and (seemingly) in civil disputes, as well. 

In the criminal context, the SCOTUS is applying the rule of lenity which means that if a rule is ambiguous, it must be construed to favor (not harm) the accused.  Here are some of the most recent cases of that... and the "rule of lenity" doctrine is being increasingly embraced by conservatives and Leftists, alike there (and elsewhere):

https://www.scotusblog.com/?s=lenity


Other words one can look up to learn more about this growing opportunity to curtail bureaucratic abuses include:

Textualism, Justice Gorsuch and textualism, & Chevron deference's decline.

 

There is this whole other world called Non Wrestling Topics

[ThreePointTakedown]

30 minutes ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

Thanks for sharing that info.   I wonder if such behavior was clearly prohibited by the rules, or merely prohibited by bureaucrats who wrote vague regulations (perhaps impermissibly, at that) and who used such vagueness to self-lather in the power of "gotcha!" moments.  More and more people in the USA are taking a stand against such bureaucratic abuses, and the U.S. Supreme Court ("SCOTUS") is admirably backing such a rebellion both in criminal law and (seemingly) in civil disputes, as well. 

In the criminal context, the SCOTUS is applying the rule of lenity which means that if a rule is ambiguous, it must be construed to favor (not harm) the accused.  Here are some of the most recent cases of that... and the "rule of lenity" doctrine is being increasingly embraced by conservatives and Leftists, alike there (and elsewhere):

https://www.scotusblog.com/?s=lenity


Other words one can look up to learn more about this growing opportunity to curtail bureaucratic abuses include:

Textualism, Justice Gorsuch and textualism, & Chevron deference's decline.

 

Its called, taking your ball and going home. This will completely upend the federal government and quite possibly destroy the economy if it actually happens. Which it won't. They don't like regulation so they try to scuttle the organization(s) put in charge of doing it and for reasons no more altruistic than profit. As we have learned over and over, banks can't be trusted to regulate themselves, oil companies can't be trusted to regulate themselves, just about every industry has an instance(usually not small, insignificant, or isolated) that says in large, friendly letters WITH. NO. OVERSIGHT. COMES. NO. RESPONSIBILITY! 

I love non-wrestling related topics but ya, you should probably bring this up somewhere else.

[ionel]

28 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

There is this whole other world called Non Wrestling Topics

[TitleIX is ripe for reform]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

There is this whole other world called Non Wrestling Topics

It's "non-wrestling" to ask if (and how) we can protect college wrestling coaches from being treated like Coach Joey Seay was during the early 1990s, at the expense of the Oklahoma State wrestling program?   If so, where should the line be drawn?   Folks have discussed everything here from tourism opportunities at wrestling venues to betting amongst each other and among the athletes.   The intimidation of our wrestling coaches by runaway bureaucrats has an impact on our sport in various ways.   I'd like to see our sport survive far better than men's gymnastics has.   I think all of us here would.   We have historically unique opportunities to help college wrestling rebound.   I (sincerely) look forward to your line-drawing proposal, though.   Meanwhile may Coach Seay R.I.P.   Talk about a hot seat, by the way.   He subsequently had a winning season during his lone one coaching at U. Tennessee:  Chattanooga  but he still apparently endured the hot seat...         

[Wrestleknownothing]

41 minutes ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

It's "non-wrestling" to ask if (and how) we can protect college wrestling coaches from being treated like Coach Joey Seay was during the early 1990s, at the expense of the Oklahoma State wrestling program?   If so, where should the line be drawn?   Folks have discussed everything here from tourism opportunities at wrestling venues to betting amongst each other and among the athletes.   The intimidation of our wrestling coaches by runaway bureaucrats has an impact on our sport in various ways.   I'd like to see our sport survive far better than men's gymnastics has.   I think all of us here would.   We have historically unique opportunities to help college wrestling rebound.   I (sincerely) look forward to your line-drawing proposal, though.   Meanwhile may Coach Seay R.I.P.   Talk about a hot seat, by the way.   He subsequently had a winning season during his lone one coaching at U. Tennessee:  Chattanooga  but he still apparently endured the hot seat...         

Good question. I didn't originally read your reply as being about wrestling, but using a wrestling related story to introduce a non-wrestling related concept that may, or may not even apply, because it is something that bothers you. But as I re-read it I think that is too harsh an interpretation. My apologies.

[AgaveMaria]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:03 PM, TexRef said:

Steve Sanderson was passed over for the BYU job, they went with Mark Schultz. Keep in mind that the program was not fully funded and didn't have a full time assistant. I am not sure why Schultz would want a job that like that, but that was his choice. Steve was so upset about BYU picking Schultz that he swore "his boys would NOT go to BYU!" 

Imagine if the Sanderson boys had gone to BYU or another school out west. Would the landscape out west be different today? Would BYU, Boise State, and UC Davis still have a program? 

If Cael & Co had been at BYU no way would Cael have 4 NCAA titles.

Even if his Father coached him he would not have done it - and Steve is an excellent coach.

Cael had the talent and the moves but Bobby Douglas was a big part of his success.

Edited September 28, 2023 by AgaveMaria

[killdozer]

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[Tripnsweep]

1 hour ago, AgaveMaria said:

If Cael & Co had been at BYU no way would Cael have 4 NCAA titles.

Even if his Father coached him he would not have done it - and Steve is an excellent coach.

Cael had the talent and the moves but Bobby Douglas was a big part of his success.

Imagine if Bobby never left ASU. Cael probably would have been a Sun Devil. 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

10 hours ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

Thanks for sharing that info.   I wonder if such behavior was clearly prohibited by the rules, or merely prohibited by bureaucrats who wrote vague regulations (perhaps impermissibly, at that) and who used such vagueness to self-lather in the power of "gotcha!" moments.  More and more people in the USA are taking a stand against such bureaucratic abuses, and the U.S. Supreme Court ("SCOTUS") is admirably backing such a rebellion both in criminal law and (seemingly) in civil disputes, as well. 

In the criminal context, the SCOTUS is applying the rule of lenity which means that if a rule is ambiguous, it must be construed to favor (not harm) the accused.  Here are some of the most recent cases of that... and the "rule of lenity" doctrine is being increasingly embraced by conservatives and Leftists, alike there (and elsewhere):

https://www.scotusblog.com/?s=lenity


Other words one can look up to learn more about this growing opportunity to curtail bureaucratic abuses include:

Textualism, Justice Gorsuch and textualism, & Chevron deference's decline.

 

That right there is a douche waffle post.

(By douche waffle, I do mean morons using dumb online AI to write their posts.)

Edited September 28, 2023 by GreatWhiteNorth

[Hwt1]

Dresser - entering year 7 and still not in top 10. Carr has been the only high AA and he will be done after this year.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 9/26/2023 at 8:58 PM, Tripnsweep said:

He also was letting guys who were grayshirting practice with the team and giving them money. Frank Trigg said that he had been recruited out of community college and was practicing with the team at Oklahoma State before he ever enrolled. 

Pretty much commonplace these days.

[ThreePointTakedown]

16 hours ago, TitleIX is ripe for reform said:

It's "non-wrestling" to ask if (and how) we can protect college wrestling coaches from being treated like Coach Joey Seay was during the early 1990s, at the expense of the Oklahoma State wrestling program?   If so, where should the line be drawn?   Folks have discussed everything here from tourism opportunities at wrestling venues to betting amongst each other and among the athletes.   The intimidation of our wrestling coaches by runaway bureaucrats has an impact on our sport in various ways.   I'd like to see our sport survive far better than men's gymnastics has.   I think all of us here would.   We have historically unique opportunities to help college wrestling rebound.   I (sincerely) look forward to your line-drawing proposal, though.   Meanwhile may Coach Seay R.I.P.   Talk about a hot seat, by the way.   He subsequently had a winning season during his lone one coaching at U. Tennessee:  Chattanooga  but he still apparently endured the hot seat...         

For all his benefits to the sport in his day, which is not nothing, Seay was not good for the sport in the long run. His 'ends-justify-the-means' approach(which is what it seems like) is entirely untenable and not beneficial for the health of the sport. He couldn't have the success he had by staying within the rules, tough! Work to change the rules or just admit you can't do it without breaking the rules. Sounds like classic confidence-man tactics. Preying on kids and their families in an age before the internet and wide spread or easily attainable information. When things crashed down around him he cried foul on the authorities. Who, in recent years, does that remind you of? This is a criminal being upset at the police for getting caught. Talk about victim-mentality. Keep in mind he was doing all of this while being responsible for kids 18-22 years old. Telling them that it is ok to bend or outright break rules if you can justify it by winning. How is that ok? Brandss are in the thick of that right now. JRob. Keep your house clean or you will  no longer be asked to be in charge of it. Coaching is a privilege and an important responsibility. Stop venerating these past figures as if they are above reproach. They were are flawed people. Lets talk about them like that. Did they do good things? Sure. Could they have been better? Definitely. Will it hold us back as a community if we try to hang on to these people as ones to be emulate? Quite possibly. 

[Gus]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

For all his benefits to the sport in his day, which is not nothing, Seay was not good for the sport in the long run. His 'ends-justify-the-means' approach(which is what it seems like) is entirely untenable and not beneficial for the health of the sport. He couldn't have the success he had by staying within the rules, tough! Work to change the rules or just admit you can't do it without breaking the rules. Sounds like classic confidence-man tactics. Preying on kids and their families in an age before the internet and wide spread or easily attainable information. When things crashed down around him he cried foul on the authorities. Who, in recent years, does that remind you of? This is a criminal being upset at the police for getting caught. Talk about victim-mentality. Keep in mind he was doing all of this while being responsible for kids 18-22 years old. Telling them that it is ok to bend or outright break rules if you can justify it by winning. How is that ok? Brandss are in the thick of that right now. JRob. Keep your house clean or you will  no longer be asked to be in charge of it. Coaching is a privilege and an important responsibility. Stop venerating these past figures as if they are above reproach. They were are flawed people. Lets talk about them like that. Did they do good things? Sure. Could they have been better? Definitely. Will it hold us back as a community if we try to hang on to these people as ones to be emulate? Quite possibly. 

Not sure how you are equating OKSt coaches knowingly breaking the rules with the Iowa wrestlers betting online. One involves the coaches and wrestlers, the other involves the wrestlers. Not exactly apples to apples. 

[ThreePointTakedown]

43 minutes ago, Gus said:

Not sure how you are equating OKSt coaches knowingly breaking the rules with the Iowa wrestlers betting online. One involves the coaches and wrestlers, the other involves the wrestlers. Not exactly apples to apples. 

Seriously? How can someone be held accountable for the actions of those they are suppose to be leading? Inconceivable! 

Granted, one was the mastermind and one was just blissfully ignorant. But N'w just went through quite the broohaha about a similar situation, posing the same excuse. Would you be happy with the same outcome?(I doubt they'd let Terry stay on to steer the ship) Now you're going to say, but the things THAT coach was unaware of were WAY worse than what the Brandss were unaware of. My question would be, does it matter? You'll say, yes and proceed to split the tiniest of hairs to rationalize your side. But they are the same underlying issue. Members of the team or the staff or both went rogue and proceeded to give the program a black eye(not the good kind). They've lost some bit of respect and authority from members of the team, that could allow this to happen. Punishments and pink slips should be handed out. House should be cleaned. Pantry should be restocked!  

[Gus]

1 hour ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Seriously? How can someone be held accountable for the actions of those they are suppose to be leading? Inconceivable! 

Granted, one was the mastermind and one was just blissfully ignorant. But N'w just went through quite the broohaha about a similar situation, posing the same excuse. Would you be happy with the same outcome?(I doubt they'd let Terry stay on to steer the ship) Now you're going to say, but the things THAT coach was unaware of were WAY worse than what the Brandss were unaware of. My question would be, does it matter? You'll say, yes and proceed to split the tiniest of hairs to rationalize your side. But they are the same underlying issue. Members of the team or the staff or both went rogue and proceeded to give the program a black eye(not the good kind). They've lost some bit of respect and authority from members of the team, that could allow this to happen. Punishments and pink slips should be handed out. House should be cleaned. Pantry should be restocked!  

I’m not saying that T&T shouldn’t re-examine the Iowa program and set the terms for what is acceptable. The hairs that are split between NW football and Iowa gambling are not tiny. These kids bet on sports using their personably cell phones. They are being held accountable for their actions. Should a coach be held entirely responsible when an is caught drinking underage or gets a DUI??

[ThreePointTakedown]

4 minutes ago, Gus said:

I’m not saying that T&T shouldn’t re-examine the Iowa program and set the terms for what is acceptable. The hairs that are split between NW football and Iowa gambling are not tiny. These kids bet on sports using their personably cell phones. They are being held accountable for their actions. Should a coach be held entirely responsible when an is caught drinking underage or gets a DUI??

Now we're talking about apples and oranges. The first few weeks of the school year are dedicated to getting back into shape, getting caught up on rule changes, and compliance meetings. Gambling is addressed. Do's and Don't's are listed and hammered home. As well as repercussions. Which can have direct impact on eligibility.

Do they have influence on the outcome of a contest? Perhaps. More so then anyone else on the street. They could at the very least have information about an athlete or athletes that could benefit them in making wagers. We don't allow insider trading in this country. Nor should we. I would say, in my experience, that the wrestling community leans a little bit to the conservative side. I could be wrong. With that being said, why are we not having the conversation of gate-way-this-or-that that conservative people love to pretend is the tip of the evil iceberg? There has been large and ongoing conversation of student debt and whether college is worth the cost.  I read about how much they wagered. Did they win? Did they ALL win? Were they all in the Black? If no, is that the kind of debt we're ok allowing a college kid to accrue? If they were all in the positive, isn't that a little suspicious? Are we sure that everything was done above board regardless of whether gambling is legal. How is it that its ok for kids to gamble on sporting events while in college while on a college team? Like at all? Never mind that it might be legal? T&T, if they still have the pull in the locker room, says, "No online gambling, it isn't a good look. Do it and you're done!" If someone doesn't want to go along with it. Let someone else deal with them.

Drinking underage is not an NCAA violation. Still makes the staff look bad and could lead to disciplinary action, same as other non-athletic or academic issues can. If a pattern develops because you lose control of your team, on or off the mat, what good are you as a steward of the program? 

[Ivan Stankowski]

Wyoming? They can't even beat Air Force or either Dakota teams and the amount of athletes hitting the portal is crazy the sniff test is failing in Laramie 

[AgaveMaria]

14 hours ago, Tripnsweep said:

Imagine if Bobby never left ASU. Cael probably would have been a Sun Devil. 

Possibly. If he were and the two older Sanderson brothers went there Cael may have followed as at ISU.

I doubt ASU he would have done it even with Bobby as coach. He might have done it at Oklahoma State under John Smith. I understand it was his first choice but going with his brothers swayed the decision.

 

[Gus]

37 minutes ago, ThreePointTakedown said:

Now we're talking about apples and oranges. The first few weeks of the school year are dedicated to getting back into shape, getting caught up on rule changes, and compliance meetings. Gambling is addressed. Do's and Don't's are listed and hammered home. As well as repercussions. Which can have direct impact on eligibility.

Do they have influence on the outcome of a contest? Perhaps. More so then anyone else on the street. They could at the very least have information about an athlete or athletes that could benefit them in making wagers. We don't allow insider trading in this country. Nor should we. I would say, in my experience, that the wrestling community leans a little bit to the conservative side. I could be wrong. With that being said, why are we not having the conversation of gate-way-this-or-that that conservative people love to pretend is the tip of the evil iceberg? There has been large and ongoing conversation of student debt and whether college is worth the cost.  I read about how much they wagered. Did they win? Did they ALL win? Were they all in the Black? If no, is that the kind of debt we're ok allowing a college kid to accrue? If they were all in the positive, isn't that a little suspicious? Are we sure that everything was done above board regardless of whether gambling is legal. How is it that its ok for kids to gamble on sporting events while in college while on a college team? Like at all? Never mind that it might be legal? T&T, if they still have the pull in the locker room, says, "No online gambling, it isn't a good look. Do it and you're done!" If someone doesn't want to go along with it. Let someone else deal with them.

Drinking underage is not an NCAA violation. Still makes the staff look bad and could lead to disciplinary action, same as other non-athletic or academic issues can. If a pattern develops because you lose control of your team, on or off the mat, what good are you as a steward of the program? 

Re-read what I wrote. The wrestlers knew the rules and were held accountable for their actions. The punishment is harsh but they all knew that gambling was a no-no and are dealing with the consequences now. I have no problem with it. I just don't think the blame falls on the head coaches nearly as much as you do. I think they need to re-evaluate things and do better moving forward. This online gambling is a newer phenomenon and sports gambling was not legal in Iowa until recently. Do you also think that Kevin Dresser, Kirk Ferentz and Matt Campbell should be fired?

[ThreePointTakedown]

7 minutes ago, Gus said:

Re-read what I wrote. The wrestlers knew the rules and were held accountable for their actions. The punishment is harsh but they all knew that gambling was a no-no and are dealing with the consequences now. I have no problem with it. I just don't think the blame falls on the head coaches nearly as much as you do. I think they need to re-evaluate things and do better moving forward. This online gambling is a newer phenomenon and sports gambling was not legal in Iowa until recently. Do you also think that Kevin Dresser, Kirk Ferentz and Matt Campbell should be fired?

It would send the message they are serious about this stuff, which they should be. So yes, perhaps they should be. If it rises to the level of being too much for the institution to accept. Then yes. Does that mean T&T and K-Dress will probably get more slack than anyone else would, sure. But that's for Iowa and IState to deal with later. Sets a bad precedent in my opinion. Seems as they are unable or unwilling to police their teams adequately to have prevented this. Begs the question, what's the next thing that will go undetected until too late? But sports organizations have always been very forthcoming with regards to transparency while in the midst of an ethical or legal crisis. So I'm sure we've heard that last of this. 

Ferentz for different reasons. His team is boring.