Does anyone know how Russia determines their world team?

[Michael]

I thought it was usually decided by the Russian national championship, but I noticed that Sadulaev apparently hasn't wrestled in one since 2020. Does their coach look for candidates at the national championship and then do private wrestle-offs between the current guy and the potential new guy or what?

[BobDole]

Russia has no rules, they do what they want.

[MPhillips]

2 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Russia has no rules, they do what they want.

Well known fact...

[steamboat_charlie]

12 minutes ago, Michael said:

I thought it was usually decided by the Russian national championship, but I noticed that Sadulaev apparently hasn't wrestled in one since 2020. Does their coach look for candidates at the national championship and then do private wrestle-offs between the current guy and the potential new guy or what?

They don't have a set in stone criteria in the same way we do.  Your summation is basically correct--nationals are used to determine some weights, other weights are more or less reserved for their stars.  

[Sheerstress]

I recall a story back in the 1980s that when world champions David Gobejishvili and Aslan Khadartsev were the top super heavyweights for the Soviet Union, head coach Ivan Yarygin made them wrestle off in an insanely long match, like 20 or 30 minutes.  

Ultimately, it's probably whoever the coaches and the wrestling governing body in Russia thinks has the best chance of winning, and barring circumstances, that will almost always be the stars.

[scribers]

Pootie picks. Second place, off to the front! 

[Eagle26]

There are pros and cons to their system. Pro is that they avoid the situation we sometimes have where a wrestler can beat someone else in a wrestle off but doesn’t perform as well against the rest of the world. However, it can also lead to a new up and comer not getting a fair chance. Tazhudinov had to change citizenship or he would’ve never been given a fair chance.

[WrestlingRasta]

1 minute ago, Eagle26 said:

There are pros and cons to their system. Pro is that they avoid the situation we sometimes have where a wrestler can beat someone else in a wrestle off but doesn’t perform as well against the rest of the world. However, it can also lead to a new up and comer not getting a fair chance. Tazhudinov had to change citizenship or he would’ve never been given a fair chance.

See Muskaev/Lebedev. Russia really blew it on that one. 

[WrestlingRasta]

Sometimes they will enter two into a tournament (ranking series often these days) and whoever performs better in the tournament will get the spot. 

[WrestlingRasta]

Russia dictates their people’s lives. We don’t do that over here. We allow people to go out and earn whatever they set their mind to. Sometimes it means we don’t get our best against the world team. But I personally would never vote to change to a system where a handful of people decides a team, or even a slot. 

[Eagle26]

3 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Russia dictates their people’s lives. We don’t do that over here. We allow people to go out and earn whatever they set their mind to. Sometimes it means we don’t get our best against the world team. But I personally would never vote to change to a system where a handful of people decides a team, or even a slot. 

Exactly!

5 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Sometimes they will enter two into a tournament (ranking series often these days) and whoever performs better in the tournament will get the spot. 

I think some version of this may be the best compromise of getting the best team and controlling your own destiny.

[Jon_Kozak]

It is almost always the Russian National champ. They only make exceptions for their best - this year only Sidakov and Sadulaev were allowed a special wrestle-off.

Olympic champ Zaur Uguev, world champ Abasgadzhi Magomedov, Olympic bronze/world champ Gadzhimurad Rashidov, and Olympic bronze medalist Artur Naifonov all had to go through Russian Nationals. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

19 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

 the situation we sometimes have where a wrestler can beat someone else in a wrestle off but doesn’t perform as well against the rest of the world. 

I see versions of this statement often enough on these boards and I think it is flawed. If Gillman or Burroughs or Diakomihalis could perform better than Richards, Marsteller, or Lee against the world then it stands to reason they could also outperform those three domestically. But they didn't so it also stands to reason that they could not perform better against the world at this point.

Take JB, for example. It is reasonable to assume at his age that he is not the wrestler he once was. And it certainly looked that way at Final X. Nothing observed at Final X would suggest he would do better against better competition to me.

[Eagle26]

20 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I see versions of this statement often enough on these boards and I think it is flawed. If Gillman or Burroughs or Diakomihalis could perform better than Richards, Marsteller, or Lee against the world then it stands to reason they could also outperform those three domestically. But they didn't so it also stands to reason that they could not perform better against the world at this point.

Take JB, for example. It is reasonable to assume at his age that he is not the wrestler he once was. And it certainly looked that way at Final X. Nothing observed at Final X would suggest he would do better against better competition to me.

I always respect your opinion, but I totally disagree with this one. JB won the world championships just last year AFTER dropping a match to Marsteller. JB has not regressed that much from just last year. Richards lost to a guy who lost his next match, and that guy lost his next match, and that guy lost his next match, and that guy lost his next match… I have a hard time believing Gilman couldn’t have done better. 
 

This happens all the time. In college I had a teammate who could always beat a guy in wrestle offs but the other guy would always do better in tournaments. Happens all the time. Marsteller is a great wrestler and taking nothing away from him, but he’s a prime example of a bad matchup for JB. He’s studied him, found a way to beat him, but hasn’t found a way to beat the rest of the world like JB has. It’s a lot different to train to beat one guy than it is to train to beat the entire world. Now, JB had a fair chance and I’m not saying we should hand pick the team. But to say whoever wins a wrestle off will certainly be the best against the rest of the world is not accurate IMO.

[bnwtwg]

3 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I always respect your opinion, but I totally disagree with this one. JB won the world championships just last year AFTER dropping a match to Marsteller. JB has not regressed that much from just last year. Richards lost to a guy who lost his next match, and that guy lost his next match, and that guy lost his next match, and that guy lost his next match… I have a hard time believing Gilman couldn’t have done better. 
 

This happens all the time. In college I had a teammate who could always beat a guy in wrestle offs but the other guy would always do better in tournaments. Happens all the time. Marsteller is a great wrestler and taking nothing away from him, but he’s a prime example of a bad matchup for JB. He’s studied him, found a way to beat him, but hasn’t found a way to beat the rest of the world like JB has. It’s a lot different to train to beat one guy than it is to train to beat the entire world. Now, JB had a fair chance and I’m not saying we should hand pick the team. But to say whoever wins a wrestle off will certainly be the best against the rest of the world is not accurate IMO.

If JB doesn't like it he is welcome to move to a different weight or wrestle for a different country. That's what his foes have done. 

[Eagle26]

If JB doesn't like it he is welcome to move to a different weight or wrestle for a different country. That's what his foes have done. 

Yes he is. I’m not making excuses for him or Gilman or anyone else. I definitely prefer our selection process over Russia’s. I am glad the U.S. doesn’t just give the spot to JB or another star. Just pointing out that the downside of that is sometimes the wrestler who is better at beating international competition doesn’t always win the wrestle off.

[jackwebster]

8 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

We allow people to go out and earn whatever they set their mind to.

Except when "we" don't.

Edited September 20, 2023 by jackwebster

[Wrestleknownothing]

7 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I always respect your opinion, but I totally disagree with this one. JB won the world championships just last year AFTER dropping a match to Marsteller. JB has not regressed that much from just last year. Richards lost to a guy who lost his next match, and that guy lost his next match, and that guy lost his next match, and that guy lost his next match… I have a hard time believing Gilman couldn’t have done better. 
 

This happens all the time. In college I had a teammate who could always beat a guy in wrestle offs but the other guy would always do better in tournaments. Happens all the time. Marsteller is a great wrestler and taking nothing away from him, but he’s a prime example of a bad matchup for JB. He’s studied him, found a way to beat him, but hasn’t found a way to beat the rest of the world like JB has. It’s a lot different to train to beat one guy than it is to train to beat the entire world. Now, JB had a fair chance and I’m not saying we should hand pick the team. But to say whoever wins a wrestle off will certainly be the best against the rest of the world is not accurate IMO.

But didn't JB have a month or more to prepare for one wrestler, Marsteller? 

Isn't it possible that JB is a fraction of a fraction slower or less strong than he used to be? It is like a running back hitting a hole. One day you are fast enough, but the next day, after enough hits, the hole closes just before you get there. I am not saying JB is there, but that fate awaits us all.

[Gus]

11 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

But didn't JB have a month or more to prepare for one wrestler, Marsteller? 

Isn't it possible that JB is a fraction of a fraction slower or less strong than he used to be? It is like a running back hitting a hole. One day you are fast enough, but the next day, after enough hits, the hole closes just before you get there. I am not saying JB is there, but that fate awaits us all.

Or maybe Chance just has hit number. He took a match off JB when JB was the world champ.

[1032004]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

But didn't JB have a month or more to prepare for one wrestler, Marsteller? 

Isn't it possible that JB is a fraction of a fraction slower or less strong than he used to be? It is like a running back hitting a hole. One day you are fast enough, but the next day, after enough hits, the hole closes just before you get there. I am not saying JB is there, but that fate awaits us all.

Maybe.  I think 57 at least just shows how little separation there is in the whole world.  I mean Richards beat Gilman AND Suriano, it’s not like he “only had to train to beat 1 guy.”  And Micic won the whole thing despite of course being no guarantee to even have won the US spot