Top ten US freestylers of all time

[fishbane]

On 9/20/2023 at 4:40 PM, neutral said:

  I remember the loss to Randy Lewis in 1988 in one series, and the 1992 loss to Fisher.  Who was the third domestic loss to? 

Antonio McKee? Legend says it happened in 1989

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIKip3hpxA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoIM_vm4Du4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJKwmBrPHSY

[AgaveMaria]

A number of great wrestlers.

But 6 of 6 Gold is perfect.

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

One more item to add to Snyder's resume:

He has the longest Olympic/World medal streak in US history with 9 in a row. Per NLWC.

[11986]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:05 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

One more item to add to Snyder's resume:

He has the longest Olympic/World medal streak in US history with 9 in a row. Per NLWC.

yeah but can he go 13 for 14 or even better 14 for 14 to top big Bruce?

(and what happened to Bruce in '91 anyway?)

[fishbane]

42 minutes ago, 11986 said:

yeah but can he go 13 for 14 or even better 14 for 14 to top big Bruce?

(and what happened to Bruce in '91 anyway?)

No idear.  

Longest medal streaks - I think

1) Snyder 9 (2015-2023)

2) Baumgartner 8 (1983-1990)

3) John Smith 6 (1987-1992)

3) Dave Schultz 6 (1982-1987)

3) Kyle Dake 6 (2018-2023)

6) Bruce Baumgartner 5 (1992-1996)

6) Jordan Burroughs 5 (2011-2015) (2017-2022?)

6) Bill Scherr 5 (1985-1989)

 

[lu1979]

1 hour ago, 11986 said:

yeah but can he go 13 for 14 or even better 14 for 14 to top big Bruce?

(and what happened to Bruce in '91 anyway?)

This is what was said in the 1992 USA wrestling yearbook in the BB write up - "He enters the Olympic year after a rare non-medal performance at the 1991 World Championships, where he placed seventh. Closer Inspection shows that Baumgartner was a victim of bad breaks. In the 1st round he lost to the tough 1989 WC Ali Reza Soliemani of Iran.  His other loss was to Turkey's Mahmut Demir , who poked Baumgartner in the eye to score the winning points in overtime."

After that book was published prior to the 1992 Olympic trials BB went on to have some of his greatest years.  He went Gold, Gold, Silver Gold, & Bronze over the next 5 years that included 2 Olympics.

[D3 for LU]

Yeah, I remembered that 'down" year for Bruce... all before his amazing gold medal performance @ Barcelona in "92.

How many of you remembered seeing his round 3 win in the last seconds over David Gobejishvili ("88 gold medal winner over Baumgartner @ Seoul ?)

0-0 , ref stops action and brings the two combatants to the center meter circle. As both get set to wrestle when the whistle gets blown, Bruce noticed the Gebejishvili visibly relax... he was satisfied that they were going into overtime and to go after Bruce then.

It was then that Bruce bulled rushed him at the whistle, grabbed his legs and bowled him over for a 3 point exposure!

With only a few seconds left after they both landed oob... it was virtually impossible get those three back.

That opened up to winning the B group and going after the gold (beating Canada's jeff Thue, 8-0.)

THAT, after his 1991 medal-less showing at the Worlds, was something to behold!

D3

[mspart]

Cool stories.   Bruce is underrated entirely. 

mspart

[MPhillips]

15 hours ago, mspart said:

Bruce is underrated entirely. 

Not around here he isn't...

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 11/3/2023 at 2:23 PM, lu1979 said:

This is what was said in the 1992 USA wrestling yearbook in the BB write up - "He enters the Olympic year after a rare non-medal performance at the 1991 World Championships, where he placed seventh. Closer Inspection shows that Baumgartner was a victim of bad breaks. In the 1st round he lost to the tough 1989 WC Ali Reza Soliemani of Iran.  His other loss was to Turkey's Mahmut Demir , who poked Baumgartner in the eye to score the winning points in overtime."

After that book was published prior to the 1992 Olympic trials BB went on to have some of his greatest years.  He went Gold, Gold, Silver Gold, & Bronze over the next 5 years that included 2 Olympics.

It was either Burnett or Strobel who told this story:

Basically, in 96, Bruce was pretty upset after not making the finals.  I'm sure he was disappointed, hurt, beat up, tired.  He initially wasn't going to wrestle for bronze.  The coaches were able to convince him that "you already have Olympic gold and silver.  Why not get a bronze and complete the set?" 

Which he did.

[lu1979]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It was either Burnett or Strobel who told this story:

Basically, in 96, Bruce was pretty upset after not making the finals.  I'm sure he was disappointed, hurt, beat up, tired.  He initially wasn't going to wrestle for bronze.  The coaches were able to convince him that "you already have Olympic gold and silver.  Why not get a bronze and complete the set?" 

Which he did.

I am always torn when I rate the greatest all time wrestlers for the USA - like most people I tend to put John Smith at the top and now I have him in a dead heat with JB.  Still the level of greatness that Bruce displayed over a 14 year period where he dominated in this country and was able to medal in 13 of 14 years with 5 golds is amazing.  At times I think he should be our #1.  

[wrestle87]

11 hours ago, lu1979 said:

I have him in a dead heat with JB

I don’t mean to be disrespectful, I hear this opinion from others a lot, and I don’t know how it can be justified.  If we’re talking peak vs peak, I’ll consider 2011-2012 JB as maybe the best wrestler to ever wear a US singlet.  

But for an overall career? I must respectfully but strenuously disagree.  JB has had a tough go since 2016 if we’re talking top 3 status.  He didn’t make the team this year, at a non-olympic weight.  A DNP in an olympic year, losing your spot, and then losing it again at a new weight two years later is not top 5 status to me.  I have a hard time justifying him above Snyder, Taylor, Dave Schultz.  

I think one of the main things in being way up there is always having answers for opponents.  A lot of people inside and outside the US have shown that they’ve figured JB out.  Being 1-dimensional to the point that you get  figured out keeps keeps him outside the top 5 for me.

[D3 for LU]

18 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It was either Burnett or Strobel who told this story:

Basically, in 96, Bruce was pretty upset after not making the finals.  I'm sure he was disappointed, hurt, beat up, tired.  He initially wasn't going to wrestle for bronze.  The coaches were able to convince him that "you already have Olympic gold and silver.  Why not get a bronze and complete the set?" 

Which he did.

It was Greg Strobel.

That story (to the best of my knowledge) was mentioned Jamie Moffat's book about Greg.

Indeed, Bruce got the set... he actually beat the Russian (Shumilin) for the bronze, that knocked him out of the championship round.

D3

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, D3 for LU said:

It was Greg Strobel.

That story (to the best of my knowledge) was mentioned Jamie Moffat's book about Greg.

Indeed, Bruce got the set... he actually beat the Russian (Shumilin) for the bronze, that knocked him out of the championship round.

D3

 

I actually heard him tell the story at a clinic in the mid 90s.  Both he and Burnett were there, and I lost track of which one said it.

Thanks for the reminder, and also the info on the book.  I have very good memories of Greg Strobel.  When I was coaching high school, my kids used to always go to the Lehigh camp.  He took a personal interest in a couple of them.  I also used to email him with questions about technique and strategy and he would always respond.  Great dude.

I'm going to try to find a copy of that book.

[lu1979]

9 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

I don’t mean to be disrespectful, I hear this opinion from others a lot, and I don’t know how it can be justified.  If we’re talking peak vs peak, I’ll consider 2011-2012 JB as maybe the best wrestler to ever wear a US singlet.  

But for an overall career? I must respectfully but strenuously disagree.  JB has had a tough go since 2016 if we’re talking top 3 status.  He didn’t make the team this year, at a non-olympic weight.  A DNP in an olympic year, losing your spot, and then losing it again at a new weight two years later is not top 5 status to me.  I have a hard time justifying him above Snyder, Taylor, Dave Schultz.  

I think one of the main things in being way up there is always having answers for opponents.  A lot of people inside and outside the US have shown that they’ve figured JB out.  Being 1-dimensional to the point that you get  figured out keeps keeps him outside the top 5 for me.

We will have to agree to disagree - In my opinion I will not discount an athletes greatness due to their slipping somewhat towards the end of an amazing career.  Was Muhammed Ali less great due to losses he took as he aged?  As I see it the fact that JB is still competing well at the age of 35 is a testament to his greatness and toughness.  No one beats father time but the great ones can hold him off for awhile.

[fishbane]

47 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

We will have to agree to disagree - In my opinion I will not discount an athletes greatness due to their slipping somewhat towards the end of an amazing career.  Was Muhammed Ali less great due to losses he took as he aged?  As I see it the fact that JB is still competing well at the age of 35 is a testament to his greatness and toughness.  No one beats father time but the great ones can hold him off for awhile.

It wasn't me that you were responding to, but I don't see this as docking for losses at the end of an amazing career.  It's more of an accumulation off accolades that leads some to prefer Baumgartner, Schultz, or Snyder.  I'll take an example from baseball to illustrate Mickey Mantle and Henry Aaron.  Mantle was a part of 7 World Championship teams, won 3 AL MVP awards, and lead the AL in WAR 6 times over an 18 year career.  Aaron, who was 2 years younger than Mantle, was on 1 World Series winning team, won 1 NL MVP, and lead the NL in WAR twice over a 23 year career.  If you are picking teams and 1957 Mantle and any version of Aaron are available the choice is obvious - Mantle was better in 1957.  Mantle was better than Aaron's best season a handful and times.  He had a higher peak and was better on a per game average over his career.

Despite this I think Aaron is almost universally ranked above Mantle in lists of greatest baseball players of all time.  His high level of play and longevity resulted in him retiring holding the MLB records in many counting stats including games, AB, HR, RBI, extra base hits, and total bases.  He also retired with the second most hits in history. 

In wrestling and combat sports in general it is more of an all or nothing proposition.  A Hank Aaron type wouldn't get the same recognition.  Being in the top 5-10 in the world consistently over a 20 year period doesn't matter as much as winning a handful of titles.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 hour ago, lu1979 said:

We will have to agree to disagree - In my opinion I will not discount an athletes greatness due to their slipping somewhat towards the end of an amazing career.  Was Muhammed Ali less great due to losses he took as he aged?  As I see it the fact that JB is still competing well at the age of 35 is a testament to his greatness and toughness.  No one beats father time but the great ones can hold him off for awhile.

Agreed; look at Buvaisar Saitiev, for example. Would anyone argue he is among the best wrestlers any of us has ever seen? Near the end of his career, he had to pick and choose his spots, and I don't think for a moment that the RWF didn't give him a little help to earn that ninth World/Olympic Gold in 13 attempts. (he didn't compete for a sport in 1999) His losing to Slay in 2000, Isagadjiev in 2002 (domestically), Ganev in 2006 at the WC, and to Murtazaliev the next year at Nationals makes him no less great in my book. he remains my favorite wrestler.

All that being said, and I am sure it appears elsewhere in this thread, but John Smith competed in the Soviet era, which prohibited him from seeing a slew of representatives from the now former Soviet Bloc countries, as well as the real depth of wrestling that the Caucasus region produces and exports as the modern guys do. I am placing not fault on him here. That was not in his control. We will never know how that would have impacted his run, but we can be sure that it would have to some degree. 

[Jim L]

22 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

...

All that being said, and I am sure it appears elsewhere in this thread, but John Smith competed in the Soviet era, which prohibited him from seeing a slew of representatives from the now former Soviet Bloc countries, as well as the real depth of wrestling that the Caucasus region produces and exports as the modern guys do. I am placing not fault on him here. That was not in his control. We will never know how that would have impacted his run, but we can be sure that it would have to some degree. 

Also should be added (as it always is) that he competed in the era of 10 weight classes. 

[fishbane]

12 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Also should be added (as it always is) that he competed in the era of 10 weight classes. 

Yes, I think the weight class reduction has added difficulty for the modern guys especially before the expansion of worlds, and for those competing at Olympic weights.  I am not sure it effects Baumgartner's accomplishments as much as others.  In 1996 the top weights were 90, 100, and 130kg.  It then went to 87, 97, and 130kg, then 84, 96, and 120, then 86, 97, and 125kg, and now 92, 97, and 125kg in non-olympic years.  I don't know that any of that moves the needle and makes soon set of weights significantly more competitive at 130/120/125kg.  Would adding 3-4 kg to the second biggest weight make the top weight less competitive?  If so dropping 5-10kg from the top end would make its less competitive.  

To me the reduction in weight classes is more of talking point in figuring out where Smith, Kemp, Jackson, and the Shultzes rank than Big Bruce.

[AnklePicker]

16 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

I don’t mean to be disrespectful, I hear this opinion from others a lot, and I don’t know how it can be justified.  If we’re talking peak vs peak, I’ll consider 2011-2012 JB as maybe the best wrestler to ever wear a US singlet.  

But for an overall career? I must respectfully but strenuously disagree.  JB has had a tough go since 2016 if we’re talking top 3 status.  He didn’t make the team this year, at a non-olympic weight.  A DNP in an olympic year, losing your spot, and then losing it again at a new weight two years later is not top 5 status to me.  I have a hard time justifying him above Snyder, Taylor, Dave Schultz.  

I think one of the main things in being way up there is always having answers for opponents.  A lot of people inside and outside the US have shown that they’ve figured JB out.  Being 1-dimensional to the point that you get  figured out keeps keeps him outside the top 5 for me.

Look who JB had to go through just to make the team. Taylor, Dake, multiple time world champs. He wrestled after the break up of the Soviet Union which makes it WAY more difficult plus he’s wrestling in an era with far fewer weight classes. Do you not factor in any of those things?  Smith beat Canadas Gary Bohay in the finals. A guy who never medaled before or after those world championships. Smith is my hero, he was like a god to me growing up while he was winning Olympic titles, but your competition matters. The depth he faced isn’t nearly what JB has faced. 1=Burroughs.  

[mspart]

Agreed.   Tough to take Burroughs out of the mix.   But Snyder is also in the same running with not so many golds.   I think other than Taz, he would have won Gold.   Where did Taz come from anyway?   Wow. 

mspart

[wrestle87]

4 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Taylor, Dake, multiple time world champs.

This is a great point.

[fishbane]

5 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Smith beat Canadas Gary Bohay in the finals. A guy who never medaled before or after those world championships. Smith is my hero, he was like a god to me growing up while he was winning Olympic titles, but your competition matters. The depth he faced isn’t nearly what JB has faced. 1=Burroughs.  

1988 Olympic gold medalist Sarkisian was in that event.  It's not like everyone took the year off.  That kind of odd finalist can happen especially before they started seeding the brackets.

In 2012 Jake Herbert was in a crazy unbalanced 84kg bracket.  The bracket was won by Sharifov over Espinal in the final.  Espinal's side of the bracket featured a single wrestler (Marsagishvili) that won a single medal (bronze 2011) at another Olympic/world championships.

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, wrestle87 said:

This is a great point.

It's not like Smith didn't have domestic competition either.  We had world champs before (Lewis) and after him (Brands) at his weight and he beat them.

[mspart]

Smith is definitely in the mix for greatest.   But we are blessed to have witnessed over the last decade a wrestling renaissance happening for the USA.   Who would have thought that we would have multiple Gold medalists at WCs a decade ago?  Multiple Silver medalists and Bronze medalists.   In 2023, 7 of 10 MFS medalled.   That is just outstanding.   Individual Neutral Athletes got 4 medals.   

It is a good time to be a US Freestyle aficionado. 

mspart