Top ten US freestylers of all time

[fishbane]

14 hours ago, Gus said:

Unless I am not recalling properly I believe that the Lewis loss for John Smith was when John was in his prime. He already had a world title when he lost to Randy I think. But you are correct that he went in to beat him best two of three to win the spot. 

I am pretty sure Smith dropped one in the 2 out of 3 with John Fisher for the 1992 Olympic spot as well.  Possibly not prime Smith by then.  His world/Olympic titles were 1987-1992 inclusive.  

Edited September 20, 2023 by fishbane

[jchapman]

2 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Gomez?  They’ve had some good battles, gotten chippy a couple times. Can’t remember if Gomez got him once though. 

IMar

[ionel]

30 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I am pretty sure Smith dropped one in the 2 out of 3 with John Fisher for the 1992 Olympic spot as well.  Possibly not prime Smith by then.  His world/Olympic titles were 1987-1992 inclusive.  

If 1992, that may have also been when he had the staph infection.  

[bnwtwg]

30 minutes ago, jchapman said:

IMar

JB's eight senior domestic losses in chronological order:

Marable (2014 Yassar Dogu)

Dake (2017 OTT)

IMar (2019 Final X)

Taylor (2021 exhibition at 86)

Dake (2x 2020 OTT)

Marstellar (2x 2023 Final X)

 

[Alces Alces Gigas]

You are missing Chances win in 2022

[ionel]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

JB's eight senior domestic losses in chronological order:

Marable (2014 Yassar Dogu)

Dake (2017 OTT)

IMar (2019 Final X)

Taylor (2021 exhibition at 86)

Dake (2x 2020 OTT)

Marstellar (2x 2023 Final X)

 

 

1 hour ago, Alces Alces Gigas said:

You are missing Chances win in 2022

Seems like a lot of losses.  

[fishbane]

1 hour ago, bnwtwg said:

JB's eight senior domestic losses in chronological order:

Marable (2014 Yassar Dogu)

Dake (2017 OTT)

IMar (2019 Final X)

Taylor (2021 exhibition at 86)

Dake (2x 2020 OTT)

Marstellar (2x 2023 Final X)

 

2017 was not an Olympic year.  There was a summer games in 2016 and there was supposed to be a summer games in 2021, but the COVID-19 pandemic pushed back the 2020 OTT and Olympics to 2021.  The series with Dake in 2017 was a WTT.  Burroughs won the series 2-1 and won worlds in 2017.  As someone else pointed out Marsteller won one of three at Final X in 2022 as well.

[fishbane]

7 minutes ago, ionel said:

 

Seems like a lot of losses.  

Not that many.  You seem like a John Smith fan.  Smith's international career spanned 1987-1992 inclusive.  His international record in that time was 100-5 and 77-3 in domestic freestyle competition.  Between 2011 and 2017 (1 more year than Smith's career) Burroughs was 152-5 overall in freestyle.  He lost once in domestic competition - that 2017 WTT match to Dake 6-6 on criteria.  He lost 4 times in international events, 4-4 to Marable at 2014 Yasar Doug, 2-9 to Tsargush at 2014 Worlds, 2-3 too Guduev at the 2016 Olympics, and 11-1 to Abdurakhmonov also at the 2016 Olympics.

[neutral]

  I remember the loss to Randy Lewis in 1988 in one series, and the 1992 loss to Fisher.  Who was the third domestic loss to? 

[Le duke]

Through the power of the transitive property (/s), we know that DT > Yazdani > Geduev/Bekzod > JB, therefore DT > JB.


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[fishbane]

12 minutes ago, neutral said:

  I remember the loss to Randy Lewis in 1988 in one series, and the 1992 loss to Fisher.  Who was the third domestic loss to? 

Not sure. I got that info from his hall of fame bio - https://nwhof.org/hall_of_fame/bio/108.

I suspect the third loss was some time in 1986 and he didn't make the team.  Maybe someone who knows can chime in.

[bnwtwg]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

2017 was not an Olympic year.  There was a summer games in 2016 and there was supposed to be a summer games in 2021, but the COVID-19 pandemic pushed back the 2020 OTT and Olympics to 2021.  The series with Dake in 2017 was a WTT.  Burroughs won the series 2-1 and won worlds in 2017.  As someone else pointed out Marsteller won one of three at Final X in 2022 as well.

Ahh you're right, it was at WTT rather than OTT and then Dake went to the new 79kg class in 2018 for his first title. Whoops.

Edited September 20, 2023 by bnwtwg
misread

[neutral]

My recall is sketchy but I believe 1986 Smith won the Goodwill games against Isaev (1986 World Champ).  And I think Smith may have sat out that world trial.

[Eagle26]

1 hour ago, fishbane said:

Not that many.  You seem like a John Smith fan.  Smith's international career spanned 1987-1992 inclusive.  His international record in that time was 100-5 and 77-3 in domestic freestyle competition.  Between 2011 and 2017 (1 more year than Smith's career) Burroughs was 152-5 overall in freestyle.  He lost once in domestic competition - that 2017 WTT match to Dake 6-6 on criteria.  He lost 4 times in international events, 4-4 to Marable at 2014 Yasar Doug, 2-9 to Tsargush at 2014 Worlds, 2-3 too Guduev at the 2016 Olympics, and 11-1 to Abdurakhmonov also at the 2016 Olympics.

Fun Fact: For the first 10 years of his senior freestyle career, Jordan Burroughs was never outscored by a domestic opponent in an any match! He did drop a few matches by criteria, but I believe Kyle Dake in was the first to score more points than him in 2021 at OTT. It took 10 years and an all-time great to do it! 

[jchapman]

8 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

Fun Fact: For the first 10 years of his senior freestyle career, Jordan Burroughs was never outscored by a domestic opponent in an any match! He did drop a few matches by criteria, but I believe Kyle Dake in was the first to score more points than him in 2021 at OTT. It took 10 years and an all-time great to do it! 

That is crazy to think about.  A whole decade.  

[neutral]

Does Burroughs have one more run in him?

[Le duke]

Does Burroughs have one more run in him?

He’s going to have to win four or five matches on the first day, culminating with Nolf, then take 2 of 3 from Dake, the next day. All while making 74kg each day. He hasn’t wrestled at 74kg since the 2021 OTTs.

I think he’s going to have a hard time making it past Nolf. Who, depending on how they seed it, he could see VERY early on, if Nolf is active at Ranking Series events. And, I doubt JB will be making it to very many 74kg RS competitions before OTTs. I don’t think he has many massive pulls down to 74kg left in him. So, we could see a Nolf vs JB R16 or R8 match. IMO, that’s a huge disadvantage for JB.


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[fishbane]

16 hours ago, neutral said:

My recall is sketchy but I believe 1986 Smith won the Goodwill games against Isaev (1986 World Champ).  And I think Smith may have sat out that world trial.

I really don't know.  I read an article that said the loss to Fisher in 1992 was his first domestic loss in 4 years (Lewis in 1988 presumably) and first since 1990 (Reinoso at Cerro Pelado). So I think this loss had to happen before the 1988 loss to Lewis.  

I see that he won Senior Nationals in 1986 and, as you pointed out, the Goodwill Games.  I think those would have happened in maybe an April/May time frame for Senior Nationals and the Goodwill Games were in July.  Joe McFarland represented the US at the World Championships in October where he lost to the finals to Isaev.  So maybe he lost at the trials in 1986?  It would seem odd too me that he skipped the trials.  For context this was his redshirt year so he didn't wrestle an NCAA schedule.

Another guess would be Senior Nationals in 1987.  Smith did not win Senior Nationals in 1987.  He won them in 1986 and 1988-1991. I do not know if that was because he sat out in 1987 or because he lost.

My final guess is that they included some loss from Junior or Espior in that record.  I think he lost domestically at the Junior level.  I suspect they did this with his international record (100-5).  The international losses I could find for him are below.  Could only find 3 at the senior level so I think the other two were at Espior and Juniors.

1992 Olympics 5th round Reinoso (Cuba) 3-1 OT over Smith (USA)

1990 Cerro Pelado Reinoso (Cuba) 4-3 OT over Smith (USA)

1989 World Cup Sarkisyan (USSR) 2-1 over Smith (USA)

1985 World Espior Championships Smith finished 3rd in a weight won by Arsen Fadzayev (USSR) though I don't know who beat Smith.  Radko Karmandiev (Bul) was the silver medalist.

1983 Junior World Championships Finals Nikolai Garkin (USSR) over Smith (USSR)

[WrestlingRasta]

20 hours ago, jchapman said:

IMar

Ahhhhh yes I forgot about that one 

[WrestlingRasta]

7 minutes ago, fishbane said:

 

My final guess is that they included some loss from Junior or Espior in that record.  I think he lost domestically at the Junior level.

If I’m not mistaken, his best finish at junior nationals is as fourth. 

[jchapman]

10 hours ago, Le duke said:

He’s going to have to win four or five matches on the first day, culminating with Nolf, then take 2 of 3 from Dake, the next day. All while making 74kg each day. He hasn’t wrestled at 74kg since the 2021 OTTs.

I think he’s going to have a hard time making it past Nolf. Who, depending on how they seed it, he could see VERY early on, if Nolf is active at Ranking Series events. And, I doubt JB will be making it to very many 74kg RS competitions before OTTs. I don’t think he has many massive pulls down to 74kg left in him. So, we could see a Nolf vs JB R16 or R8 match. IMO, that’s a huge disadvantage for JB.


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When you lay out the full context of what it will take for JB to make the team, it certainly seems like the odds are stacked against him.  My gut says he won't be able to do it, but I still can't believe a lot of the things he's accomplished, including the broken ankle performance.  I wouldn't feel comfortable telling him to his face that I don't think he will do it.

[ionel]

8 minutes ago, fishbane said:

  I see that he won Senior Nationals in 1986 and, as you pointed out, the Goodwill Games.  I think those would have happened in maybe an April/May time frame for Senior Nationals and the Goodwill Games were in July.  Joe McFarland represented the US at the World Championships in October where he lost to the finals to Isaev.  

Pretty sure he skipped trials that year, he was still in college correct?

[fishbane]

23 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

If I’m not mistaken, his best finish at junior nationals is as fourth. 

That's what I found as well.  I would assume that would mean 2 domestic losses at the junior level which wouldn't work.  Since the HOF record for him had three losses and he definitely had two at the senior level.  Maybe he forfeited the 3rd place match?

[fishbane]

23 minutes ago, ionel said:

Pretty sure he skipped trials that year, he was still in college correct?

Yes, but this was the year he redshirted.  

1983-1984 he lost in the second round and DNP.  1984-1985 was the year he lost to Jordan in the final, wrestled at Espior worlds (July in Colorado) and took bronze.  1985-1986 he redshirted won senior nationals (April?  in Vegas), won Goodwill Games (July in Moscow), did not wrestle at worlds (October in Budapest). 1986-1987 he won NCAAs, did not win senior nationals (did he wrestle?), presumable won WTT, won Pan Ams (August in Indianapolis), and won world championships (August in France).  1987-1988 he won NCAAs, won senior nationals, won OTT, won Olympics. 

 I suppose worlds being in October 1986 may have interfered with his preparation for his redshirt junior year so he may have sat out the trials.  Maybe if they had been earlier in the year like they were in 1987 he would not have sat out.  Or perhaps if he had beaten Iseav before the trials he would have prioritized going to the world championships.  Either way if he sat out the WTT in 1986 then we still don't know where the 3rd domestic loss occurred. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

21 hours ago, ionel said:

If 1992, that may have also been when he had the staph infection.  

And was putting a tremendous amount of energy into coaching.