How many more for Taylor

[peanut]

22 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Mehnert didn't compete when there were World Championship tournaments.  He only had the opportunity to compete on the world stage every four years at the Olympics, and he went 2 for 2.  

Even if we award Mehnert a bunch of hypothetical golds, it doesn’t change the fact that wrestling was a joke back  when he competed. 

[PNWfan]

42 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I think DT calls it after the Olympics, personally.  He has nothing to prove that he hasn't already proved and should be looking in to his next phase.   I hope he lands a HC gig somewhere.

Totally agree. DT already said he was considering retirement after he won Olympic gold in 2021. I think what had him come back was knowing he still had some great years left as a competitor and that there were "only" 3 years until the next Olympics instead of 4. DT is also an entrepreneur and has a couple daughters that I am sure he would like to spend more time around. He mentioned previously that if he coached, PSU would be the preference, so maybe him and Cael could work something out once Cael is ready to ride off into the sunset.

[Eagle26]

Not to take away from Taylor's accomplishments, but Wrestling Mt. Rushmore is pretty crowded.
We go through this exercise every year but there's no agreement on how to objectively measure our top 4. Is an Olympic medal worth more than World gold? Do we adjust metrics for post-USSR competition? Banned countries? # of weight classes? College record? Super low cut singlets?
Taylor has 1 Olympic medal (gold) + 4 World medals (3 gold 1 silver). Where does he fit in this list, which doesn't even include Gable, Cael, Rulon, Kemp, and many others frequently mentioned in discussions of our all-time greats.
Bruce Baumgartner: 4 (2G 1S 1B) + 9 (3G 3S 3B)
John Smith: 2 (2G) + 4 (4G)
Helen Maroulis: 2 (1G 1S) + 6 (3G 2S 1B)
Kyle Snyder: 2 (1G 1S) + 6 (3G 2S 1B)
Kenny Monday: 2 (1G 1S) + 2 (1G 1S)
Rulon Gardner: 2 (1G 1B) + 1 (1G)
Jordan Burroughs: 1 (1G) + 9 (6G 3B)
Adeline Gray: 1 (1S) + 8 (6G 2B)  *2023 Worlds TBD
Dave Schultz: 1 (1G) + 6 (1G 3S 2B)
Kyle Dake: 1 (1B) + 5 (4G 1TBD)  plus he hasn't lost to Taylor since they were kids
David Taylor: 1 (1G) + 4 (3G 1S)
 

I think you have to separate the different styles. Greco would have its own “Mt. Rushmore” as would women’s freestyle. The top 3 in Men’s freestyle is pretty clear to me although you can debate their order… Smith, JB and Big Bruce. After that, right now it should be Snyder but Dake and Taylor are on his heels. Next year will be telling. I’m most confident in DT winning Olympic gold, and if he does and the other two don’t, he takes the 4th spot

[AnklePicker]

DT tech and pinned his way through this year if I’m not mistaken. People always made such a big deal of gable not giving up a point and rightfully so that’s super impressive, but give me the guy who pins or tech falls his way through all day every day. 

[jchapman]

6 hours ago, peanut said:

Even if we award Mehnert a bunch of hypothetical golds, it doesn’t change the fact that wrestling was a joke back  when he competed. 

When did wrestling stop being a joke?

[scribers]

No way he retires. These guys are chasing history now and they know it 

[peanut]

1 hour ago, jchapman said:

When did wrestling stop being a joke?

The day after you quit.

[billyhoyle]

9 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I think DT calls it after the Olympics, personally.  He has nothing to prove that he hasn't already proved and should be looking in to his next phase.   I hope he lands a HC gig 

 

Yes, he absolutely has something left to prove if he wins in Paris. If he were to win a third Olympic gold he’d unquestionably be the greatest American wrestler to ever live.

Now, I understand if he retires and is happy with his career-it’s amazing-but there is still motivation to come back. 

[billyhoyle]

2 hours ago, scribers said:

No way he retires. These guys are chasing history now and they know it 

Who else is chasing history? Or do you mean they are as a team in the potential run they can go on in the next 4 years? 

[scribers]

Him, Dake; Snyder; Burroughs, guys coming up. They are competing very well against the world now and are collecting medals. None of them will stop before their bodies do. 

[jchapman]

12 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

DT tech and pinned his way through this year if I’m not mistaken. People always made such a big deal of gable not giving up a point and rightfully so that’s super impressive, but give me the guy who pins or tech falls his way through all day every day. 

Then you are probably a fan of George Mehnert, who pinned his way through the 1908 Olympics to win his second consecutive Olympic Gold medal.  This included pinning the Silver medalist two out-of-two as medal matches were best of three matches at the time.

[CHROMEBIRD]

21 hours ago, jchapman said:

Mehnert didn't compete when there were World Championship tournaments.  He only had the opportunity to compete on the world stage every four years at the Olympics, and he went 2 for 2.  

Valid point, but the assumed medals can get tricky. By the same logic Tricia Saunders has 5 World medals (4G 1S) but likely would have been a 2 or 3 time Olympic medalist, possibly gold, if WFS existed in the Olympics back then. She'd be up there on Mt. Rushmore.

[jchapman]

15 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Valid point, but the assumed medals can get tricky. By the same logic Tricia Saunders has 5 World medals (4G 1S) but likely would have been a 2 or 3 time Olympic medalist, possibly gold, if WFS existed in the Olympics back then. She'd be up there on Mt. Rushmore.

Right I wasn't assuming medals, just replying to another member's post.  This is what makes this a great discussion, the back and forth of different perspectives.

[pokemonster]

Flo guys talked about this for a bit due to DT's interview saying he's the most dynamic and dominant ever (https://www.flowrestling.org/events/11049592-2023-senior-world-championships/videos?playing=11251509&limit=60), and Ben brought up that compared to 74 and 97kg, 86kg has been pretty weak. They mentioned outside Yazdani, the field basically rolls over and is most definitely worse than our domestic competition. I think that has some merit to it. 

[billyhoyle]

21 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

Flo guys talked about this for a bit due to DT's interview saying he's the most dynamic and dominant ever (https://www.flowrestling.org/events/11049592-2023-senior-world-championships/videos?playing=11251509&limit=60), and Ben brought up that compared to 74 and 97kg, 86kg has been pretty weak. They mentioned outside Yazdani, the field basically rolls over and is most definitely worse than our domestic competition. I think that has some merit to it. 

I don't buy that 74kg and 97 kg would be stronger than 86 kg in terms of depth, unless people are actively avoiding Yaz and Taylor.  Why is Russia so good at producing 74 kg and 97 kg wrestlers, and all of a sudden so bad at producing 86 kg wrestlers? This lack of 86 kg wrestlers despite decades of being the best at 84 (now 86) kg.  Maybe Yazdani and Taylor are just much better than the field, and the field itself isn't really that weak. 

[bnwtwg]

18 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

I don't buy that 74kg and 97 kg would be stronger than 86 kg in terms of depth, unless people are actively avoiding Yaz and Taylor.  Why is Russia so good at producing 74 kg and 97 kg wrestlers, and all of a sudden so bad at producing 86 kg wrestlers? This lack of 86 kg wrestlers despite decades of being the best at 84 (now 86) kg.  Maybe Yazdani and Taylor are just much better than the field, and the field itself isn't really that weak. 

found Deepak Punia's burner

[AnklePicker]

On 9/19/2023 at 10:24 AM, jchapman said:

Then you are probably a fan of George Mehnert, who pinned his way through the 1908 Olympics to win his second consecutive Olympic Gold medal.  This included pinning the Silver medalist two out-of-two as medal matches were best of three matches at the time.

Of course he's a Jersey guy.  But he was really small, like 115.  Not the same imo as an 86kg.  WAY less adult guys walking around weighing 115.  Even back then.  

[jchapman]

2 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

Of course he's a Jersey guy.  But he was really small, like 115.  Not the same imo as an 86kg.  WAY less adult guys walking around weighing 115.  Even back then.  

The 1908 Olympics only had 5 weight classes, lowest weight was 119.

[neutral]

Way back in the 80's and 90's we would be thrilled at 4 and 5 time medalists.  Now we have a few on the cusp of double digits.  A good problem to have.

[AnklePicker]

18 hours ago, jchapman said:

The 1908 Olympics only had 5 weight classes, lowest weight was 119.

In 1904 the weight was 115.  Wrestling was exponentially less deep at that time, even more so at that weight.

Some context on the subject.  In the 1904 Olympic games, won by Mehnert, only 62 of the 651 athletes who competed came from outside North America due to the Russo-Japanese war.  Contrast that with what Taylor and JB and all of our current competitors have to deal with.  In 1908 there were 22 countries represented in the Olympics, in 2020 there were 206.  There is no comparison. 

[jchapman]

37 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

In 1904 the weight was 115.  Wrestling was exponentially less deep at that time, even more so at that weight.

Some context on the subject.  In the 1904 Olympic games, won by Mehnert, only 62 of the 651 athletes who competed came from outside North America due to the Russo-Japanese war.  Contrast that with what Taylor and JB and all of our current competitors have to deal with.  In 1908 there were 22 countries represented in the Olympics, in 2020 there were 206.  There is no comparison. 

Of course there is context when different eras are compared.  Why is Babe Ruth considered in the conversation for one of the greatest baseball players in history, Jesse Owens one of the greatest track athletes, but Mehnert is laughed off the list of Top 10 US freestylers?  For context, Jesse Owens' 100M PR would not have gotten him in the Finals of the 2023 NCAA Championships, and his 200M PR would have placed 9th (not even counting that his time is hand-timed vs electric timing today).

Edited September 21, 2023 by jchapman

[TylerDurden]

54 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Of course there is context when different eras are compared.  Why is Babe Ruth considered in the conversation for one of the greatest baseball players in history, Jesse Owens one of the greatest track athletes, but Mehnert is laughed off the list of Top 10 US freestylers?  For context, Jesse Owens' 100M PR would not have gotten him in the Finals of the 2023 NCAA Championships, and his 200M PR would have placed 9th (not even counting that his time is hand-timed vs electric timing today).

Also for context, Jesse Owens ran on tracks made of cinder, with no starting blocks,  and still recorded a pr of 10.2 in the 100 and 20.7 in the 200.

I don't know how closely you follow track, but there are people out there who have analyzed Owens vs. Usain Bolt and have concluded that Owens is basically within a stride of the fastest track athlete in history in the 100m when you level out the surface/equipment disadvantages. There's next to zero chance Owens would DNQ for an NCAA sprint final.  

I understand the point you're trying to make, but Owens isn't the guy you want to hold up to make that point.

[jchapman]

16 minutes ago, TylerDurden said:

Also for context, Jesse Owens ran on tracks made of cinder, with no starting blocks,  and still recorded a pr of 10.2 in the 100 and 20.7 in the 200.

I don't know how closely you follow track, but there are people out there who have analyzed Owens vs. Usain Bolt and have concluded that Owens is basically within a stride of the fastest track athlete in history in the 100m when you level out the surface/equipment disadvantages. There's next to zero chance Owens would DNQ for an NCAA sprint final.  

I understand the point you're trying to make, but Owens isn't the guy you want to hold up to make that point.

Yes he is, because though his performance numbers pale in comparison to today's performance numbers, he is still considered an all-time great due to his dominance against his peers.  Plus, when his performance is analyzed in the context of modern equipment and training advantages, we can better understand his greatness.  Track offers a chance to better "scientifically" examine and predict historical performance in the context of modern conditions.  Wresting is a more nebulous event that doesn't allow for this level of precision when predicting modern performance.  We are left to consider dominance over peers, and a bunch of speculation.

I'm not saying that Mehnert is as great at wrestling as Owens was as a track athlete.  I am just pointing out that everyone knows not only who Owens is, but that he is one of the greatest athletes of all time.  However, die hard freestyle wrestling fans laugh off the notion that Mehnert at least deserves to be mentioned among the greatest US freestyle wrestlers.  He has two Olympic Golds, pinning his way through the 1908 Olympics. He won six National titles, losing only once domestically to the guy who would go one to win Olympic Gold in a higher weight class the next year.

[de4856]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:58 PM, CHROMEBIRD said:

Kyle Snyder: 2 (1G 1S) + 6 (3G 2S 1B)

SnyderMan now has 2B