Oh Canada

[Le duke]

What we are talking about happened during the depression as a way to increase prices.   My dad witnessed this as a kid.  He wondered why farmers were digging up their crops while people were starving.  Fortunately nowadays, we don't have that as much as we did during the 1930s, the starving paradigm that is.  
mspart

We have a different problem now.

We pay fathers to use their arable land to produce crops that no human can eat raw (field corn), or can be processed into sweeteners that are significant contributing factor to our skyrocketing obesity rate. Or, we pay farmers to not grow anything at all.


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[ionel]

43 minutes ago, Le duke said:

We have a different problem now.

We pay fathers to use their arable land to produce crops that no human can eat raw (field corn), or can be processed into sweeteners that are significant contributing factor to our skyrocketing obesity rate. Or, we pay farmers to not grow anything at all.


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Who gets paid to not grow anything?

[Le duke]

Who gets paid to not grow anything?

Tens of thousands of farmers, all over the country, every year, for decades.





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[ionel]

3 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

Tens of thousands of farmers, all over the country, every year, for decades.





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Specifics please, what farmers, crops, states?  Paid to produce absolutely nothing, is this a new Biden Ag policy?  I have not heard of it.  

[Gus]

56 minutes ago, Le duke said:

We have a different problem now.

We pay fathers to use their arable land to produce crops that no human can eat raw (field corn), or can be processed into sweeteners that are significant contributing factor to our skyrocketing obesity rate. Or, we pay farmers to not grow anything at all.


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Field corn also gets fed to livestock, which we eat with smiles on our faces

[ionel]

5 minutes ago, Gus said:

Field corn also gets fed to livestock, which we eat with smiles on our faces

Yes, check out the Smoker thread, BIG smiles over there.   

[GreatWhiteNorth]

16 minutes ago, ionel said:

Specifics please, what farmers, crops, states?  Paid to produce absolutely nothing, is this a new Biden Ag policy?  I have not heard of it.  

Well known program - CRP. Not a state program, federal. Farmers all over got paid to stop producing crops.

There is a decent joke that goes along with this, but I'm going to hold back on that - comedy is a bit about timing.

Not Biden, it was around in the 80's

 

[Le duke]

Specifics please, what farmers, crops, states?  Paid to produce absolutely nothing, is this a new Biden Ag policy?  I have not heard of it.  

Please tell me you’re joking.


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[ionel]

7 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Well known program - CRP. Not a state program, federal. Farmers all over got paid to stop producing crops.

There is a decent joke that goes along with this, but I'm going to hold back on that - comedy is a bit about timing.

Not Biden, it was around in the 80's

 

Conservation Researve Program pays land owners to establish generally a native grass (switch grass type) on land that has been deemed highly erodiable.  It generally doesn't pay a farmer unless the farmer owns that track of land.  I know of no farmers who are able to stop producing crops and survive on CRP payments.  CRP is good for the land, wildlife and the climate.

Edited September 7, 2023 by ionel

[GreatWhiteNorth]

Weird that I was the one who was previously accused of not actually growing up on a farm. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by GreatWhiteNorth

[GreatWhiteNorth]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

Conservation Researve Program pays land owners to establish generally a native grass (switch grass type) on land that has been deemed highly erodiable.  It generally doesn't pay a farmer unless the farmer owns that track of land.  I know of no farmers who are able to stop producing crops and survive on CRP payments.  CRP is good for the land, wildlife and the climate.

Are you 100% sure you're not a politician?

Farmers put their land in CRP because it was more profitable than growing crops.

This is well known in the Midwest. Who are you trying to fool?

 

[Ban Basketball]

I'd argue that farmers get paid to grow nothing all over the country, and especially here in Ioway.

I once heard it described (accurately) this way:  Iowa is surrounded by food ( corn and soybeans), none of which is edible.  

It's all commodity and used for other purposes,  sure as heck not eating.  So,  yes,  they grow nothing. 

One of the best films I've seen.   https://www.pbs.org/video/independent-lens-king-corn/

[Gus]

3 hours ago, Ban Basketball said:

I'd argue that farmers get paid to grow nothing all over the country, and especially here in Ioway.

I once heard it described (accurately) this way:  Iowa is surrounded by food ( corn and soybeans), none of which is edible.  

It's all commodity and used for other purposes,  sure as heck not eating.  So,  yes,  they grow nothing. 

One of the best films I've seen.   https://www.pbs.org/video/independent-lens-king-corn/

The majority of field corn is used for livestock feed & ethanol production - over 60%. The remaining corn is used in food production (corn syrup, corn flakes, corn starch, etc), exported overseas, used in manufacturing or carried over in surplus. 

[Le duke]

The majority of field corn is used for livestock feed & ethanol production - over 60%. The remaining corn is used in food production (corn syrup, corn flakes, corn starch, etc), exported overseas, used in manufacturing or carried over in surplus. 

The fact that the US government subsidizes, emphasizes or in any way promotes through any means corn syrup or ethanol production is very troubling to me.


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[Gus]

13 minutes ago, Le duke said:

The fact that the US government subsidizes, emphasizes or in any way promotes through any means corn syrup or ethanol production is very troubling to me.


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What is troubling to you about ethanol?

[Ban Basketball]

26 minutes ago, Gus said:

The majority of field corn is used for livestock feed & ethanol production - over 60%. The remaining corn is used in food production (corn syrup, corn flakes, corn starch, etc), exported overseas, used in manufacturing or carried over in surplus. 

Yes.  I'm probably too aware of the "uses" of the garbage. 

[Gus]

38 minutes ago, Ban Basketball said:

Yes.  I'm probably too aware of the "uses" of the garbage. 

How am I not surprised that Ban is also anti-farming???

[Ban Basketball]

27 minutes ago, Gus said:

How am I not surprised that Ban is also anti-farming???

I'm anti-corporate farming,  and anti-subsidy farming for crap that we don't even eat. 

Aside from that,  you'll never meet a person more pro-ag than I am.  We just have a backwards system of subsidization of our food system. 

I initially came from farming,  before the days of corporations and subsidies.

[Offthemat]

1 hour ago, Ban Basketball said:

I'm anti-corporate farming,  and anti-subsidy farming for crap that we don't even eat. 

Aside from that,  you'll never meet a person more pro-ag than I am.  We just have a backwards system of subsidization of our food system. 

I initially came from farming,  before the days of corporations and subsidies.

BEFORE?   https://www.britannica.com/topic/Agricultural-Adjustment-Act

[ionel]

13 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Are you 100% sure you're not a politician?

Farmers put their land in CRP because it was more profitable than growing crops.

This is well known in the Midwest. Who are you trying to fool?

 

CRP came about because of soil erosion.  In the North Central region (IA, IL, IN, MN etc)  it was primarily a slope issue.  In the Great Plains (OK, KS, NE etc) a wind issue.  Soils were categorized based on being highly erodiable due to soil type and slope or wind.  This was at a time (like you said 80s ish) when very little adoption of min-till and no-till farming practices.  If highly erodiable soils the farmer & landowner had a choice if they wanted to remain eligible for government payment, put it in CRP or change tillage to min/no-till to conserve the soil reduce/eliminate erosion.  These were 10 year contracts.  Some opted out and continued current practice.  Many entered the program because they didn't have the equipment to change and in many areas the agronomy, engineering, economic (compaction, tempt, yield etc) research was not there for these new practices.  After the first 10 contracts and the second 10 yr the research and new practices had caught up and more and more land came back out of CRP,  more so in NC than prob GP region.  

On average farmers own maybe 10% of the land they farm, larger farm operations less than the avg.  I know of a 6k+ acre operation where its only 4%.  If a farmer had a 10 year cash rent contract (10 would be highly unusual) with the landowner they could put it in CRP and net the difference.  But for most why would the landowner let the farmer operator take all the payment if the landowner can take the contract themselves? Most arrangements back then were sharecrop or short 2 or 3 year cash rent contracts.

No farmers didn't throw all there land into CRP because they could make more money than growing crops.  It was an environmental issue and also issue for land owners & operators who wanted to remain eligible for other gvt programs.  If you want to sign up for the full lecture let me know, there's a lot more to it.

Your welcome.  And sorry in advance for spelling  grammatical errors, on tablet not gonna proof read and edit.

Edited September 7, 2023 by ionel

[Ban Basketball]

3 hours ago, Offthemat said:

BEFORE?   https://www.britannica.com/topic/Agricultural-Adjustment-Act

Yes, before the modern era of subsidization. That's why farms were diversified. 

[Offthemat]

1 minute ago, Ban Basketball said:

Yes, before the modern era of subsidization. That's why farms were diversified. 

Why are you weaseling, we’re not wagering anything. 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

12 hours ago, ionel said:

CRP came about because of soil erosion.  In the North Central region (IA, IL, IN, MN etc)  it was primarily a slope issue.  In the Great Plains (OK, KS, NE etc) a wind issue.  Soils were categorized based on being highly erodiable due to soil type and slope or wind.  This was at a time (like you said 80s ish) when very little adoption of min-till and no-till farming practices.  If highly erodiable soils the farmer & landowner had a choice if they wanted to remain eligible for government payment, put it in CRP or change tillage to min/no-till to conserve the soil reduce/eliminate erosion.  These were 10 year contracts.  Some opted out and continued current practice.  Many entered the program because they didn't have the equipment to change and in many areas the agronomy, engineering, economic (compaction, tempt, yield etc) research was not there for these new practices.  After the first 10 contracts and the second 10 yr the research and new practices had caught up and more and more land came back out of CRP,  more so in NC than prob GP region.  

On average farmers own maybe 10% of the land they farm, larger farm operations less than the avg.  I know of a 6k+ acre operation where its only 4%.  If a farmer had a 10 year cash rent contract (10 would be highly unusual) with the landowner they could put it in CRP and net the difference.  But for most why would the landowner let the farmer operator take all the payment if the landowner can take the contract themselves? Most arrangements back then were sharecrop or short 2 or 3 year cash rent contracts.

No farmers didn't throw all there land into CRP because they could make more money than growing crops.  It was an environmental issue and also issue for land owners & operators who wanted to remain eligible for other gvt programs.  If you want to sign up for the full lecture let me know, there's a lot more to it.

Your welcome.  And sorry in advance for spelling  grammatical errors, on tablet not gonna proof read and edit.

This is interesting - it appears I'm essentially debating with ChatGPT... I guess it was only a matter of time before AI took over for lack of human intelligence. It did not take long for us to see a genuine example. So disappointing.

"Slope issue" was the key? Have you ever been to Iowa or Southern MN? Try looking for some slopes.

Be careful when believing what ChatGPT produces, it is only as good as the internet crap that it scraped and regurgitated. It is woefully wrong much of the time right now - the only scary thing is that it will get better.

I was just a little kid in the early 80's, so I saw it from my school bus. From 7a-ish for about an hour, we drove around and picked up all the other farm kids. No crops in any of their fields. Didn't think anything of it at the time - acreage in CRP and other government programs, PIK and what not. They made more money not farming than they would have made farming - sometimes a lot more.

I'm almost ready to release the joke I promised earlier. But... the mood still seems grim. I'll hold off.

 

 

[ionel]

11 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

This is interesting - it appears I'm essentially debating with ChatGPT... I guess it was only a matter of time before AI took over for lack of human intelligence. It did not take long for us to see a genuine example. So disappointing.

"Slope issue" was the key? Have you ever been to Iowa or Southern MN? Try looking for some slopes.

Be careful when believing what ChatGPT produces, it is only as good as the internet crap that it scraped and regurgitated. It is woefully wrong much of the time right now - the only scary thing is that it will get better.

I was just a little kid in the early 80's, so I saw it from my school bus. From 7a-ish for about an hour, we drove around and picked up all the other farm kids. No crops in any of their fields. Didn't think anything of it at the time - acreage in CRP and other government programs, PIK and what not. They made more money not farming than they would have made farming - sometimes a lot more.

I'm almost ready to release the joke I promised earlier. But... the mood still seems grim. I'll hold off.

 

 

Don't be Ban ... be better than Ban!

I said there's much more to this, most every 10 year contract period eligibility & incentives were tweaked.  Yes I've been on farms in IA, MN, IL, IA, MO, KS, OK, NE etc there's a difference with soil type on 0-2% slope vs 3-5% or sandy vs loam with 10mph wind vs 30 to 40 mph.  There are plenty of highly erodible soils on 3-5% slope and even wind related on 0-2% slope loamy sand.   Glacial soil deposits is a full semester+ course, we don't have time for that.  We could also look at adoption rates in and out of CRP as well as tillage and planting technology.   We are not talking about what you see out your window or read in some newspaper article but about research and facts.  Don't be Ban and try to make up your own facts, I've read your stuff, you are better than that. 

[mspart]

Let me guess where the 0% slope lands are - North Dakota or up by Winnipeg (essentially the same).   I went to the 1999 Pan Am Games in Winnipeg.   I was told by someone that it is God's pool table and that if you look hard enough, you can see the back of your head.    My eyes weren't that good back then so I couldn't see the back of my head but it was certainly 0% slope.

mspart