Your thoughts on SCOTUS decision on student loan denial

[Le duke]

PPP was only a loan in a technical sense. It was never designed to be paid back. As long as an employer used the money to keep employing, it was forgiven. It was only structured as a loan to make legal recourse simpler if an employer failed to live up to their promise.

Do what one of the plaintiffs did:

Pay off your student loans with a PPP loan for your arts and crafts business you run out of your home. Get $48,000, then get $47,996 of that loan relieved and use $17,000 of it to pay off your private loans to SMU.

https://original.newsbreak.com/@kevinjamesshay-1698260/3046310329832-business-group-plaintiff-that-filed-lawsuit-before-scotus-to-block-student-loan-relief-received-ppp-loan-forgiveness


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[Wrestleknownothing]

6 minutes ago, Le duke said:

Do what one of the plaintiffs did:

Pay off your student loans with a PPP loan for your arts and crafts business you run out of your home.

https://original.newsbreak.com/@kevinjamesshay-1698260/3046310329832-business-group-plaintiff-that-filed-lawsuit-before-scotus-to-block-student-loan-relief-received-ppp-loan-forgiveness


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Thats not what that article says at all.

[Le duke]

Thats not what that article says at all.

Here’s a bit more:

https://theintercept.com/2022/11/09/student-debt-relief-lawsuit-ppp-myra-brown/

A woman who can’t pay off her private loans gets free money for…things…from PPP, for her own home business. That money then goes, sooner or later, towards her student loan payments.



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[Wrestleknownothing]

38 minutes ago, BerniePragle said:

I would have to assume that in Mr. Wonderful's bankruptcies there were people and companies that he (oops, his businesses) owed 100 clams to, that only received 90 clams, 75 clams, 5 clams, etc.  That's pretty much what I'd call not meeting one's financial obligations.  Obviously this is done under cover of a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo, so that it becomes more difficult to see from A to B.  I'm a simple guy.
As I've said numerous times, many more things are misunderstood by making them too complicated than by making them too simple. 

Just making sure we all understand many rich people and corporations do not live up to their financial obligations also.

Now I'll rest.  I think I'll take a nap.
 

Bankruptcy serves a vital role that makes financing possible. Without an orderly process for unwinding a business when there are not sufficient assets to satisfy all claims, it would be chaos, and whoever goes first could screw everyone else. This would make capital too expensive, as everyone would need excess returns to cover the risk.

For me the big issue is that student loans are not forgivable in bankruptcy. Even though they are often what drives someone into bankruptcy. This is bad because it means the backer of those loans (the government) need have no discipline in making the loans.

The idea that if you extend credit to someone who cannot pay it back means you will lose money, acts as a natural governor on making dumb loans. Remove that governor and we get loans made to people for garbage degrees at for profit universities that will never result in good jobs, or any job at all, and universities inflating tuitions to unsustainable degrees.

Allow student loan forgiveness in bankruptcy and a lot of problems we currently have will correct themselves over time.

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 minutes ago, Le duke said:

 

Here’s a bit more:

https://theintercept.com/2022/11/09/student-debt-relief-lawsuit-ppp-myra-brown/




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That just argues she is a hypocrite and a pawn, not that she used PPP money to pay off student loans or that her business was a sham.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Wrestleknownothing

[poorwrestler]

Bankruptcy serves a vital role that makes financing possible. Without an orderly process for unwinding a business when there are not sufficient assets to satisfy all claims, it would be chaos, and whoever goes first could screw everyone else. This would make capital too expensive, as everyone would need excess returns to cover the risk.
For me the big issue is that student loans are not forgivable in bankruptcy. Even though they are often what drives someone into bankruptcy. This is bad because it means the backer of those loans (the government) need have no discipline in making the loans.
The idea that if you extend credit to someone who cannot pay it back means you will lose money, acts as a natural governor on making dumb loans. Remove that governor and we get loans made to people for garbage degrees at for profit universities that will never result in good jobs, or any job at all, and universities inflating tuitions to unsustainable degrees.
Allow student loan forgiveness in bankruptcy and a lot of problems we currently have will correct themselves over time.

This is one of the best takes I’ve seen on this issue not just in this forum but anywhere. Surprised we do not see it more. Relatively small adjustment that could go a long way.


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[Le duke]

That just argues she is a hypocrite and a pawn, not that she used PPP money to pay off student loans or that her business was a sham.

If I have $1 in my bank account, get paid $10 on Friday, and pay $2 to my student loans on Monday, are we pretending that it didn’t come from the same pool of $11? Really?


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[mspart]

1 hour ago, Le duke said:

Please explain how Missouri had standing here.


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SCOTUS and the lower courts accepted they had standing.  Perhaps going to one of these courts to get an understanding will be better than getting understand from one of the yokels (myself included) on this board.

Let's accept that they had standing (just as SCOTUS and lower courts did), where did the 6-3 ruling go right, and where did it go wrong?   Same for the dissent.

My simple opinion is as I have explained.   Using the Constitution, a President's executive order does not carry the weight of law.   In financial matters all bills start in the House.   There was no general student loan bill started in the House.   It started on the President's desk.  Therefore, not valid.  Period.  That's my very simple opinion of this.   This is assuming that you can't use a law made specifically for military personnel to apply to the general public.   I believe that is where the dissent and Biden get it wrong. 

mspart

[BerniePragle]

39 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Bankruptcy serves a vital role that makes financing possible. Without an orderly process for unwinding a business when there are not sufficient assets to satisfy all claims, it would be chaos, and whoever goes first could screw everyone else. This would make capital too expensive, as everyone would need excess returns to cover the risk.

For me the big issue is that student loans are not forgivable in bankruptcy. Even though they are often what drives someone into bankruptcy. This is bad because it means the backer of those loans (the government) need have no discipline in making the loans.

The idea that if you extend credit to someone who cannot pay it back means you will lose money, acts as a natural governor on making dumb loans. Remove that governor and we get loans made to people for garbage degrees at for profit universities that will never result in good jobs, or any job at all, and universities inflating tuitions to unsustainable degrees.

Allow student loan forgiveness in bankruptcy and a lot of problems we currently have will correct themselves over time.

Exactly.  Not meeting one's financial obligations.  Too much broth and not enough clams.  I know you are infinitely more well versed at this than I am, but the bottom line is the bottom line.  Can we not say that in all these, someone's getting screwed?  Not just financiers, but contractors.  Plumbers, electricians, etc?

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, Le duke said:

If I have $1 in my bank account, get paid $10 on Friday, and pay $2 to my student loans on Monday, are we pretending that it didn’t come from the same pool of $11? Really?


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Yo comprende fungible, but that is not what this is. There is nowhere it says the student loans had been paid off. If they are not paid off, then they were not paid off with PPP proceeds. And for that to happen the PPP proceeds would need to leave the business bank account, go to the personal account and then go to the loan servicer. Alternatively, if the money is paid to the servicer from the business account, then the loan would not have been forgiven. But it was. Meaning it was used appropriately.

Fungibility does not apply here.

[Wrestleknownothing]

40 minutes ago, BerniePragle said:

Exactly.  Not meeting one's financial obligations.  Too much broth and not enough clams.  I know you are infinitely more well versed at this than I am, but the bottom line is the bottom line.  Can we not say that in all these, someone's getting screwed?  Not just financiers, but contractors.  Plumbers, electricians, etc?

Believe me, I am in no way endorsing Trump's business practices or ethics.

[BerniePragle]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Believe me, I am in no way endorsing Trump's business practices or ethics.

Nor am I necessarily endorsing student loan forgiveness carte blanche.  I just try to present all the facts (as I see them).

Too many people get their panties in a wad over what some rich guys want them to get their panties in a wad over, and totally ignore the fox in the henhouse.  I merely point out the fox.  (This is obviously NOT a reference to you.  I know better than that.)

[Wrestleknownothing]

48 minutes ago, BerniePragle said:

Nor am I necessarily endorsing student loan forgiveness carte blanche.  I just try to present all the facts (as I see them).

Too many people get their panties in a wad over what some rich guys want them to get their panties in a wad over, and totally ignore the fox in the henhouse.  I merely point out the fox.  (This is obviously NOT a reference to you.  I know better than that.)

I laughed because I worked at a place called Fox River and the founder had a website picture with him in the power stance while people off camera threw chickens in the air so they could get a "fox in the hen house" pic. It was cringy.

[BerniePragle]

14 hours ago, mspart said:

SCOTUS and the lower courts accepted they had standing.  Perhaps going to one of these courts to get an understanding will be better than getting understand from one of the yokels (myself included) on this board.

Let's accept that they had standing (just as SCOTUS and lower courts did), where did the 6-3 ruling go right, and where did it go wrong?   Same for the dissent.

My simple opinion is as I have explained.   Using the Constitution, a President's executive order does not carry the weight of law.   In financial matters all bills start in the House.   There was no general student loan bill started in the House.   It started on the President's desk.  Therefore, not valid.  Period.  That's my very simple opinion of this.   This is assuming that you can't use a law made specifically for military personnel to apply to the general public.   I believe that is where the dissent and Biden get it wrong. 

mspart

I've always got my understanding of all things from here.  I find the whole of yokel knowledge is greater than the sum of its parts.

Of course this is a joke, but often I've actually felt that if a bunch of us Joe Schmos were running the country, we'd be better off.  Can I get an Amen?

BTW, I need to get a copy of your Constitution.  It must be much longer than mine.  Yours seems to cover everything from making whoopee to making lasagna.

Edited July 1, 2023 by BerniePragle

[billyhoyle]

On 6/30/2023 at 1:21 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Bankruptcy serves a vital role that makes financing possible. Without an orderly process for unwinding a business when there are not sufficient assets to satisfy all claims, it would be chaos, and whoever goes first could screw everyone else. This would make capital too expensive, as everyone would need excess returns to cover the risk.

For me the big issue is that student loans are not forgivable in bankruptcy. Even though they are often what drives someone into bankruptcy. This is bad because it means the backer of those loans (the government) need have no discipline in making the loans.

The idea that if you extend credit to someone who cannot pay it back means you will lose money, acts as a natural governor on making dumb loans. Remove that governor and we get loans made to people for garbage degrees at for profit universities that will never result in good jobs, or any job at all, and universities inflating tuitions to unsustainable degrees.

Allow student loan forgiveness in bankruptcy and a lot of problems we currently have will correct themselves over time.

There is a de facto bankruptcy in student loans in that after 20 years of IBR payments, the loans are forgiven regardless of the remaining balance. Paying through IBR (now at 5% of disposable income), nobody should be driven to bankruptcy with federal student loans.  Student loan forgiveness is already built into the system through this channel. 

The entire reason these loans are government-guaranteed is to enable people with limited financial means to have access to the funds needed to receive an education.  You don't want to take that away-it is really the one guaranteed way for class mobility in this country.  The problem, as you point out, are predatory for profit universities that encourage people to take out loans for degrees that won't actually result in a job. 

[headshuck]

[Husker_Du]

isn't part of the problem the decreasing value of a college degree?

at one time it put you ahead - got a good job that made up the expense pretty much out of the gate.

 

[Plasmodium]

I think it is much more about the cost.   These loans have fueled the disproportionate cost increase of education  for decades. Highly unethical of these "non-profit" institutions.  Very similar to health care.

[billyhoyle]

6 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

isn't part of the problem the decreasing value of a college degree?

at one time it put you ahead - got a good job that made up the expense pretty much out of the gate.

 

It all depends on the university. As many on this forum will tell you, a degree from Cornell is well worth the sticker price-even if it is in agriculture and even if it takes you seven years. The same is true for most big universities. 
 

There are now too many shitty colleges though-these are the ones that often struggle to enroll enough students or are predatory/for profit. People graduate from these in debt and are no better off in finding jobs. 

[billyhoyle]

6 hours ago, headshuck said:

 

Are you spike cohen? 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

14 hours ago, headshuck said:

 

If you have something to add to the conversation - it would be welcomed by all.

But posting someone else's twitter "post" is super weak... like brain dead weak.

If you like someone else's post, read it - learn from it - then post what you've learned in your own words, as you, with your own thoughts.

Be original, use your voice. That's why we're here.

Nobody comes here to read twitter posts. They would go to twitter for that garbage.

[GreatWhiteNorth]

14 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

isn't part of the problem the decreasing value of a college degree?

at one time it put you ahead - got a good job that made up the expense pretty much out of the gate.

 

Others have beat me to it,

The "value of a college degree" is still very high compared to the investment. For the Ivy's and other institutions in that orbit, it's a relatively quick payback and, potentially, then some.

As the orbit decreases in size, the payback isn't always as quick or obvious. They won't get the consistent 'best and brightest' like the top tier and that is reflected later.

It gets bumpy in the middle, because the lack of top talent leads to more of a roll-the-dice payback. Some do much better than others. Just like wrestling.

... and then there's the below-middle tier. The value of these degrees isn't particularly high. Won't necessarily put you ahead "out of the gate." But kids can star here, too.

[headshuck]

If you have something to add to the conversation - it would be welcomed by all.
But posting someone else's twitter "post" is super weak... like brain dead weak.
If you like someone else's post, read it - learn from it - then post what you've learned in your own words, as you, with your own thoughts.
Be original, use your voice. That's why we're here.
Nobody comes here to read twitter posts. They would go to twitter for that garbage.

Haha, nice try. This forum is chock full of Twitter links. Mike Parrish made a daily habit of posting Twitter links to rile up conservatives. Followed by an lololol of course.

How about you stop following me and leaving me personal messages.

[BerniePragle]

20 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

isn't part of the problem the decreasing value of a college degree?

at one time it put you ahead - got a good job that made up the expense pretty much out of the gate.

 

I agree with this.  With the H1B/1990 law, I saw a large influx of foreign educated engineers with higher degrees to fill jobs in my field.  This continues today though probably more as a result of the ease of outsourcing to other countries.  With just a computer and internet connection, an engineer in Elbonia can (pretty much) accomplish what a Cornell grad can for a lot less dinero.  I would assume it's the same in many other fields.  Simple supply and demand.

[Husker_Du]

17 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

It all depends on the university. As many on this forum will tell you, a degree from Cornell is well worth the sticker price-even if it is in agriculture and even if it takes you seven years. The same is true for most big universities. 
 

There are now too many shitty colleges though-these are the ones that often struggle to enroll enough students or are predatory/for profit. People graduate from these in debt and are no better off in finding jobs. 

So basically, when you boil it down, the advantage comes nor from college but from the work/talen/merit you put in during hs