nhs67 Posted May 31, 2023 Author Share Posted May 31, 2023 16 minutes ago, Cowboy08 said: Well you're comparing him to two top guys, I'm not saying Carroll is going to come in an take top 4 AA as a true freshman but he will at least give the pokes a live body at heavyweight, something Doucet is not and something they have been severely lacking for a while aside from White I am curious your take, none-the-less. Feldman was better last year coming out than Carroll is now. The plan was to redshirt him even prior to his injury/surgery. Interestingly enough, Ornerydwarf had gone 19W-11L the year prior to Feldman arriving on campus. Doucet went 19W-12L last year. So I ask the same two questions I did prior. What does OSU lose by utilizing a redshirt and allowing him to grow more in to the weight and also allow the weight to clear out a little bit more? Also, how do you see him against Elam and Bastida right now? "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy08 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 4 hours ago, nhs67 said: I am curious your take, none-the-less. Feldman was better last year coming out than Carroll is now. The plan was to redshirt him even prior to his injury/surgery. Interestingly enough, Ornerydwarf had gone 19W-11L the year prior to Feldman arriving on campus. Doucet went 19W-12L last year. So I ask the same two questions I did prior. What does OSU lose by utilizing a redshirt and allowing him to grow more in to the weight and also allow the weight to clear out a little bit more? Also, how do you see him against Elam and Bastida right now? It's easy to sit Feldman for a year when you have a bonafide heavyweight with a ton of experience ahead of him. Doucet may have been 19-12 but that record is misconceiving. He really wasn't competitive with any legit heavies and will likely never sniff an AA. Carroll is an immediate upgrade IMO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted May 31, 2023 Author Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Cowboy08 said: It's easy to sit Feldman for a year when you have a bonafide heavyweight with a ton of experience ahead of him. Doucet may have been 19-12 but that record is misconceiving. He really wasn't competitive with any legit heavies and will likely never sniff an AA. Carroll is an immediate upgrade IMO Brotherman... c'mon. Why can't you answer the questions? I am not a Cowboy fan... I enjoy them, though. I am asking you, a Cowboy fan, how you think he fares against the 2nd tier of Big 12 heavies. The ones he will need to be competitive with to qualify for nationals. Not trolling. I just want a more educated opinion on it. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 7 hours ago, Formally140 said: Isn’t the preferential treatment the older son got part of what started eroding the culture there? Is it? Fill me in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 16 minutes ago, Offthemat said: Is it? Fill me in. JoJo and his weight issues.... Rogers.... ring a bell? Sponsored by INTERMAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 15 minutes ago, Idaho said: JoJo and his weight issues.... Rogers.... ring a bell? I myself wanted Chandler to wrestle NCAAs his senior year. He was more exciting to watch and I felt he had a higher bonus potential, but when I realized I was protesting more than Chandler was, I conceded. It seems that he’s still around the program, too. So if I were to speak of eroding culture it would more likely include names like Ferrari and Mastrogiavani than Smith and Rogers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idaho Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Offthemat said: I myself wanted Chandler to wrestle NCAAs his senior year. He was more exciting to watch and I felt he had a higher bonus potential, but when I realized I was protesting more than Chandler was, I conceded. It seems that he’s still around the program, too. So if I were to speak of eroding culture it would more likely include names like Ferrari and Mastrogiavani than Smith and Rogers. I agree completely on the eroding culture....but the Smith-Rogers situation was a bad look. Sponsored by INTERMAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Offthemat said: I myself wanted Chandler to wrestle NCAAs his senior year. He was more exciting to watch and I felt he had a higher bonus potential, but when I realized I was protesting more than Chandler was, I conceded. It seems that he’s still around the program, too. So if I were to speak of eroding culture it would more likely include names like Ferrari and Mastrogiavani than Smith and Rogers. I said started the erosion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 3 hours ago, Idaho said: JoJo and his weight issues.... Rogers.... ring a bell? As far as we know Joe won the wrestle off, and no one should be surprised as Joe was technically a better wrestler and had seen Chandler's pin moves since high school and wasn't going to get caught in any. I just think they did the wrestle off wrong, given the circumstances that it was prep for a tournament and Joe had stamina & weight issues. I'd bet it was just a straight up wrestle off. My thought at the time was here's how I would've done it. They had several good backup 165 & 174s. Two day wrestle off. Day 1 weigh in scratch, 1.5 hr later both wrestle simultaneously against 2 backups (4 backups total) rotate a fresh guy in every ~2 minutes, if there's a pin rotate a fresh guy in. 1 hour later Joe & Chandler wrestle. Day 2 scratch or +1lb, 1.5 hr later wrestle same time other 2 backups. 1 hr later Joe & Chandler. If one has won twice its over if not then 1 hour later Joe & Chandler wrestle a third time. If the 2 out of 3 is close and the winner had close matches against the backups but the loser of 2 out of 3 had multiple pins against backups (yes Wkn multiple pins, given you rotate a new guy after every pin Chandler could get 14 pins in a match, no pinfall needed but I regress), then you'd better think about it because you are looking for the best tournament point scoring wrestler. But John didn't ask me so I bet they did a simple wrestle off. Downside of my plan is this had to be done week before Big 12s, do you really want you wrestler making weight twice and going thru 5 tough matches right before conference tourney? There were no easy/simple solutions. Well ok one, John could've kept his wife from feeding Joe cookies and ice-cream, and any who think that's easy maybe you aren't married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLT Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 They are laying eggs until proven otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 1, 2023 Author Share Posted June 1, 2023 7 hours ago, BLT said: They are laying eggs until proven otherwise. Are you saying you need to see the bacon, Bacon? "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 14 hours ago, nhs67 said: Brotherman... c'mon. Why can't you answer the questions? I am not a Cowboy fan... I enjoy them, though. I am asking you, a Cowboy fan, how you think he fares against the 2nd tier of Big 12 heavies. The ones he will need to be competitive with to qualify for nationals. Not trolling. I just want a more educated opinion on it. I don't know too much about Carroll but I'd bet he qualifies for sure. Weren't he and Feldman pretty close? And Feldman had beaten some NQ-level guys as a high schooler. I could certainly see Carroll beating guys like Gordon, Heindselman and Wolfgram. Not sure what to think about Bastida at 285. I'm not sure why but wrestlestat has SDSU RSFR Luke Rasmussen at #33 despite a pretty uninspiring redshirt year. It may make sense to redshirt and let 285 clear out a bit though. I don't think either are placing top 6, but wouldn't be shocked if either finished 7th or 8th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 1, 2023 Author Share Posted June 1, 2023 36 minutes ago, 1032004 said: I don't know too much about Carroll but I'd bet he qualifies for sure. Weren't he and Feldman pretty close? And Feldman had beaten some NQ-level guys as a high schooler. I could certainly see Carroll beating guys like Gordon, Heindselman and Wolfgram. Not sure what to think about Bastida at 285. I'm not sure why but wrestlestat has SDSU RSFR Luke Rasmussen at #33 despite a pretty uninspiring redshirt year. It may make sense to redshirt and let 285 clear out a bit though. I don't think either are placing top 6, but wouldn't be shocked if either finished 7th or 8th. I might be wrong about the following as I don't follow HS outside of Florida and Michigan too much and neither went to a Michigan school. I do believe they were competitive when Feldman went to 285 from 220 and Carroll was there. The gap widened when Feldman established himself as THE #1 285lber and Carroll dropped to 220. Carroll then took some losses to other legit guys (maybe just one guy, but still). Carroll is now going back up for college. Feldman has had a year advantage in the college room and a year advantage in the growing department (out not up, obvi). I am interested at seeing how this weekend plays out, as I believe Catka is entered? A great barometer if they meet in the best of three. Until he puts results out there against current D1 gents I am not assuming he is an upgrade on Doucet. Ornerydwarf wasn't BONAFIDE' in my opinion. He placed 8th in a watered down 2021 field. Otherwise he didn't do shit. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex1fly Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) I see Carroll at least trying to take shots. And he’d be exciting for the fans. Doucet won a lot of matches in OT rideout and was rarely aggressive. Downside of redshirting anybody these days is they might transfer. Joe and Chandler incident. Basically a coin toss. Joe had higher potential but because he had been sick or whatever until the Big 12s who knew how he’d perform in a tourney setting. Edited June 1, 2023 by alex1fly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 52 minutes ago, nhs67 said: I might be wrong about the following as I don't follow HS outside of Florida and Michigan too much and neither went to a Michigan school. I do believe they were competitive when Feldman went to 285 from 220 and Carroll was there. The gap widened when Feldman established himself as THE #1 285lber and Carroll dropped to 220. Carroll then took some losses to other legit guys (maybe just one guy, but still). Carroll is now going back up for college. Feldman has had a year advantage in the college room and a year advantage in the growing department (out not up, obvi). I am interested at seeing how this weekend plays out, as I believe Catka is entered? A great barometer if they meet in the best of three. Until he puts results out there against current D1 gents I am not assuming he is an upgrade on Doucet. Ornerydwarf wasn't BONAFIDE' in my opinion. He placed 8th in a watered down 2021 field. Otherwise he didn't do shit. Feldman spent most of the year rehabbing from neck surgery 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 8 minutes ago, nhs67 said: I might be wrong about the following as I don't follow HS outside of Florida and Michigan too much and neither went to a Michigan school. I do believe they were competitive when Feldman went to 285 from 220 and Carroll was there. The gap widened when Feldman established himself as THE #1 285lber and Carroll dropped to 220. Carroll then took some losses to other legit guys (maybe just one guy, but still). Carroll is now going back up for college. Feldman has had a year advantage in the college room and a year advantage in the growing department (out not up, obvi). I am interested at seeing how this weekend plays out, as I believe Catka is entered? A great barometer if they meet in the best of three. Until he puts results out there against current D1 gents I am not assuming he is an upgrade on Doucet. Ornerydwarf wasn't BONAFIDE' in my opinion. He placed 8th in a watered down 2021 field. Otherwise he didn't do shit. If Orndorff "didn't do shit," then Doucet definitely didn't. I'd guess Caroll is definitely an upgrade considering Doucet scored 0 points at NCAA's. But with the logjam at the top of 285, his upside might be limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnwtwg Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 5 hours ago, 1032004 said: I don't know too much about Carroll but I'd bet he qualifies for sure. NQ at 285 from Big 12 isn't exactly difficult. If you can win your wrestleoff then there is a good chance you've made it - they somehow earned EIGHT AQs last year out of 13 teams. Hendrickson took 3rd, Elam 6th, Schuyler R12, then a steep shove off the cliff for everyone else by Friday morning. Carroll took one look at the B1G landscape and noped right out of that competition. i am an idiot on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 1, 2023 Author Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 hour ago, 1032004 said: If Orndorff "didn't do shit," then Doucet definitely didn't. I'd guess Caroll is definitely an upgrade considering Doucet scored 0 points at NCAA's. But with the logjam at the top of 285, his upside might be limited. I mean... I never said Doucet did... My argument is that I don't see a difference between Ornerydwarf to Feldman and Doucet to Carroll, if we are assuming that the Ornerydwarf and Feldman are both better than their counterparts. I am assuming it because it is a truth not based on my own opinion. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 15 minutes ago, nhs67 said: I mean... I never said Doucet did... My argument is that I don't see a difference between Ornerydwarf to Feldman and Doucet to Carroll, if we are assuming that the Ornerydwarf and Feldman are both better than their counterparts. I am assuming it because it is a truth not based on my own opinion. Orndorff had pretty significantly better results than Doucet. He had 11 wins at the NCAA tournament in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 1, 2023 Author Share Posted June 1, 2023 11 minutes ago, 1032004 said: Orndorff had pretty significantly better results than Doucet. He had 11 wins at the NCAA tournament in his career. I don't see how what you are saying is any different than what I am saying. I never said Ornerydwarf = Doucet. Think of it like this... Feldman Carroll ----------- = ------- Ornerydwarf Doucet Where Ornerydwarf > Doucet and Feldman > Carroll are both also true. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingcement Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 I view the difference in Carroll and Feldman to be negligible. Pretty close to even. I view Orndorff, an all american, as being a level above Doucet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 24 minutes ago, flyingcement said: I view the difference in Carroll and Feldman to be negligible. Pretty close to even. I view Orndorff, an all american, as being a level above Doucet This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhs67 Posted June 2, 2023 Author Share Posted June 2, 2023 4 hours ago, flyingcement said: I view the difference in Carroll and Feldman to be negligible. Pretty close to even. I view Orndorff, an all american, as being a level above Doucet 3 hours ago, 1032004 said: This Well I humbly disagree with both of you. Feldman has destroyed college AA contenders. Carroll has not. "I know actually nothing. It isn't even conjecture at this point." - me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offthemat Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 11 minutes ago, nhs67 said: Well I humbly disagree with both of you. Feldman has destroyed college AA contenders. Carroll has not. Has he wrestled any AA contenders yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formally140 Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, ionel said: As far as we know Joe won the wrestle off, and no one should be surprised as Joe was technically a better wrestler and had seen Chandler's pin moves since high school and wasn't going to get caught in any. I just think they did the wrestle off wrong, given the circumstances that it was prep for a tournament and Joe had stamina & weight issues. I'd bet it was just a straight up wrestle off. My thought at the time was here's how I would've done it. They had several good backup 165 & 174s. Two day wrestle off. Day 1 weigh in scratch, 1.5 hr later both wrestle simultaneously against 2 backups (4 backups total) rotate a fresh guy in every ~2 minutes, if there's a pin rotate a fresh guy in. 1 hour later Joe & Chandler wrestle. Day 2 scratch or +1lb, 1.5 hr later wrestle same time other 2 backups. 1 hr later Joe & Chandler. If one has won twice its over if not then 1 hour later Joe & Chandler wrestle a third time. If the 2 out of 3 is close and the winner had close matches against the backups but the loser of 2 out of 3 had multiple pins against backups (yes Wkn multiple pins, given you rotate a new guy after every pin Chandler could get 14 pins in a match, no pinfall needed but I regress), then you'd better think about it because you are looking for the best tournament point scoring wrestler. But John didn't ask me so I bet they did a simple wrestle off. Downside of my plan is this had to be done week before Big 12s, do you really want you wrestler making weight twice and going thru 5 tough matches right before conference tourney? There were no easy/simple solutions. Well ok one, John could've kept his wife from feeding Joe cookies and ice-cream, and any who think that's easy maybe you aren't married. The word I heard from people I trust is that Joni was coming late to practice, stupid overweight and just straight up allowed to do things Smith never has let fly Edit JoJo Edited June 2, 2023 by Formally140 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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