Angelo Ferrari set to announce "commitment" [sic] on May 31

[1032004]

8 hours ago, flyingcement said:

I don't really remember but how high was Cassar ranked in HS

Cassar is probably the best example of Cael helping to develop a not so heralded recruit.  Took longer than 2 years though.

Haines seems to be more of just being under-ranked, which of course is another skill Cael has.  IIRC Starocci is another example of that.

[Husker_Du]

I had Haines #7 coming out (May 2022). he then lost to mesenbrink in best of 3 JR Trials finals in June.

Haines was really good. but nothing suggested NCAA-Finals-9-months-later.

[H82Lose]

36 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

I had Haines #7 coming out (May 2022). he then lost to mesenbrink in best of 3 JR Trials finals in June.

Haines was really good. but nothing suggested NCAA-Finals-9-months-later.

100% he was really good, but I agree. He got handled in the finals of super 32 too his JR year. He didn't get beat my a slouch by any means, but Haines has jumped levels since then. 

[H82Lose]

10 hours ago, hawkguy said:

Name one time cael has developed a lower tiered guy to major a number 1. You're creating scenarios that do not exist.

 

I am not a PSU fan by any means, but could one argue PSU has elevated Gillman to a better wrestler than he was at Iowa? 

[1032004]

10 minutes ago, H82Lose said:

100% he was really good, but I agree. He got handled in the finals of super 32 too his JR year. He didn't get beat my a slouch by any means, but Haines has jumped levels since then. 

But isn’t the time he “jumped levels” also including his senior year of high school?  Although I guess he was training a lot at NLWC right?

[H82Lose]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

But isn’t the time he “jumped levels” also including his senior year of high school?  Although I guess he was training a lot at NLWC right?

good point, but you also make a good point on training.  Again, no dog in the fight here, Brands is a great coach and Sanderson is a great coach. 

[hawkguy]

13 hours ago, H82Lose said:

I am not a PSU fan by any means, but could one argue PSU has elevated Gillman to a better wrestler than he was at Iowa? 

He was a world silver before he left iowa

[pretty_rob]

20 hours ago, hawkguy said:

He was a world silver before he left iowa

Silver… the new favorite precious metal of Iowa wrestling 

[H82Lose]

On 6/3/2023 at 9:17 PM, hawkguy said:

He was a world silver before he left iowa

I think you would have to admit Gillman is better at PSU than he was at Iowa, right?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 6/3/2023 at 10:17 PM, hawkguy said:

He was a world silver before he left iowa

Silver right out of the gate.  Has done nothing to show that he has really improved on his initial performance at Worlds.

[VakAttack]

1 hour ago, H82Lose said:

I think you would have to admit Gillman is better at PSU than he was at Iowa, right?

I would say that he has made some improvements, but not anything massive, more in line with natural progression.  He's not a hugely different wrestler, just more fine tuned.  Reasonable minds can disagree on the cause.

[Formally140]

I mean.. the progress wasn’t really linear… 

He went from a surprise silver to DNPing for 2-3 years and looking like he was slightly regressing. He wasn’t finishing shots either, either only got a step out or was countered. 

Since going to PSU.. he’s only won 3 straight world medals and a title. 
Gilman only massively improved his technique..  Started to finally make very clear technical adjustments to finish his shots, wrestles to score points instead of just try to hand fight people down. 
 

There’s not bad faith arguments here
 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

56 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I would say that he has made some improvements, but not anything massive, more in line with natural progression.  He's not a hugely different wrestler, just more fine tuned.  Reasonable minds can disagree on the cause.

 

23 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

I mean.. the progress wasn’t really linear… 

He went from a surprise silver to DNPing for 2-3 years and looking like he was slightly regressing. He wasn’t finishing shots either, either only got a step out or was countered. 

Since going to PSU.. he’s only won 3 straight world medals and a title. 
Gilman only massively improved his technique..  Started to finally make very clear technical adjustments to finish his shots, wrestles to score points instead of just try to hand fight people down. 
 

There’s not bad faith arguments here
 

Coach Cael's voodoo doctor

[LJB]

i think it is very disingenuous to even imply that gillman has not improved markedly since his move to NLWC...

[BAC]

At HWC, Gilman went from 2nd (2017) to DNP (2018) to DNQ (2019).  Many of us, including me, had written off his 2017 silver as a bit flukish.  

At NLWC, Glman went Bronze-Gold-Silver (2020-22).  

That's not natural progression.  It's a level jump.  

That said, I don't think its proof that NLWC has better coaching than HWC.  Sometimes a guy just needs a change of environment to thrive, or a different coaching perspective, or different training partners with a wider set of looks.  That doesn't mean the coaches are qualitatively better.  (Truthfully I DO think NLWC's free/folk coaching tops overall, I just don't think one can assume all improvement is due to coaching quality.)

Candidly I wish the various RTCs would agree to "athlete exchanges," e.g. swapping wrestlers for maybe a month or two at a time, to ensure their guys are getting different coaching perspectives and different training partners.  It would no doubt benefit both RTCs' athletes in the long run.  

[11986]

Gilman placed 5th once as well. Not that it changes the narrative re progression, but 5th sounds better, IS better, than being noted as DNP. 

[nhs67]

4 hours ago, H82Lose said:

I think you would have to admit Gillman is better at PSU than he was at Iowa, right?

Bigger, faster, stronger, and better.  Yes.

[Formally140]

1 hour ago, BAC said:

At HWC, Gilman went from 2nd (2017) to DNP (2018) to DNQ (2019).  Many of us, including me, had written off his 2017 silver as a bit flukish.  

At NLWC, Glman went Bronze-Gold-Silver (2020-22).  

That's not natural progression.  It's a level jump.  

That said, I don't think its proof that NLWC has better coaching than HWC.  Sometimes a guy just needs a change of environment to thrive, or a different coaching perspective, or different training partners with a wider set of looks.  That doesn't mean the coaches are qualitatively better.  (Truthfully I DO think NLWC's free/folk coaching tops overall, I just don't think one can assume all improvement is due to coaching quality.)

Candidly I wish the various RTCs would agree to "athlete exchanges," e.g. swapping wrestlers for maybe a month or two at a time, to ensure their guys are getting different coaching perspectives and different training partners.  It would no doubt benefit both RTCs' athletes in the long run.  

Problem is poaching. Always that

[BAC]

13 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Problem is poaching. Always that

Bah.  RTCs should have enough confidence in what they offer that is a minimal concern.  And they should be humble enough to realize that no matter how good their staff is, their wrestlers will benefit from different looks and coaching ideas.

And I think it would have the opposite effect:  wrestlers will be more inclined to sign up with RTCs that won't hold them hostage, but rather will get them out there to broaden their horizons.  It also would help in retaining wrestlers:  would tOSU have lost Snyder to NWLC if Snyder had the option to go train with Cael/Casey/Varner for a couple months, then return?  I'm not so sure they would have.

Besides, if it is done as an exchange, the risk runs both ways.  I highly doubt that an RTC receiving an exchange wrestler would try to poach them, or the other RTC would do the same, and they'd be seen as a pariah by all the other RTCs for abusing the trust placed in them.

I see only upside.

[Formally140]

7 minutes ago, BAC said:

Bah.  RTCs should have enough confidence in what they offer that is a minimal concern.  And they should be humble enough to realize that no matter how good their staff is, their wrestlers will benefit from different looks and coaching ideas.

And I think it would have the opposite effect:  wrestlers will be more inclined to sign up with RTCs that won't hold them hostage, but rather will get them out there to broaden their horizons.  It also would help in retaining wrestlers:  would tOSU have lost Snyder to NWLC if Snyder had the option to go train with Cael/Casey/Varner for a couple months, then return?  I'm not so sure they would have.

Besides, if it is done as an exchange, the risk runs both ways.  I highly doubt that an RTC receiving an exchange wrestler would try to poach them, or the other RTC would do the same, and they'd be seen as a pariah by all the other RTCs for abusing the trust placed in them.

I see only upside.

That’s very easy to say if you’re Penn State. But a lot of the mid tier coaches are getting pretty cynical about their hard work and actually taking the time to coach guys up then having their talent blatantly poached.

Yes, I’m aware of the environment and the excuses for it. 
 

But if you follow these trends to their natural conclusion. The end result is the sport shrinking and shrinking. 
it is what it is

[Mr. PeanutButter]

Gilman spoke numerous times around the time he was getting ready to jump ship about the hamstring injury he suffered late 2018 and how hamstrung he felt afterwards so part of his improvement curve had a lot to do with getting healthy. 

Still, it does appear that the change in location has done well by him.

If we're keen on incomplete narratives then I think it's important to note that both RBY and Max Dean regressed this past year and Facundo failed to live up to the hype 

Now excuse me while I go shudder in a corner about what the Ferraris are about to do to IC

[BobDole]

2 hours ago, BAC said:

Candidly I wish the various RTCs would agree to "athlete exchanges," e.g. swapping wrestlers for maybe a month or two at a time, to ensure their guys are getting different coaching perspectives and different training partners.  It would no doubt benefit both RTCs' athletes in the long run.  

Wrestlers routinely travel around and train at other RTCs. I know NLWC and Penn have a good relationship along with many others. I believe Molinaro is at Penn this week which might suggest some ASU guys are there too. Gwiz has spent a good deal of time at NLWC. I believe the traveling around is more of a personal choice as to not give looks to others that are trying to chase you down.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, BobDole said:

Wrestlers routinely travel around and train at other RTCs. I know NLWC and Penn have a good relationship along with many others. I believe Molinaro is at Penn this week which might suggest some ASU guys are there too. Gwiz has spent a good deal of time at NLWC. I believe the traveling around is more of a personal choice as to not give looks to others that are trying to chase you down.

Dake used to go to NLWC to roll with Taylor a lot, but  there was no way he would ever end up relocating there.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 hour ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

Gilman spoke numerous times around the time he was getting ready to jump ship about the hamstring injury he suffered late 2018 and how hamstrung he felt afterwards so part of his improvement curve had a lot to do with getting healthy. 

Still, it does appear that the change in location has done well by him.

If we're keen on incomplete narratives then I think it's important to note that both RBY and Max Dean regressed this past year and Facundo failed to live up to the hype 

Now excuse me while I go shudder in a corner about what the Ferraris are about to do to IC

Cael's witch doctor.

Also he has mentioned that letting his weight balloon up a little has been helpful.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 hours ago, BAC said:

At HWC, Gilman went from 2nd (2017) to DNP (2018) to DNQ (2019).  Many of us, including me, had written off his 2017 silver as a bit flukish.  

At NLWC, Glman went Bronze-Gold-Silver (2020-22).  

That's not natural progression.  It's a level jump.  

That said, I don't think its proof that NLWC has better coaching than HWC.  Sometimes a guy just needs a change of environment to thrive, or a different coaching perspective, or different training partners with a wider set of looks.  That doesn't mean the coaches are qualitatively better.  (Truthfully I DO think NLWC's free/folk coaching tops overall, I just don't think one can assume all improvement is due to coaching quality.)

Candidly I wish the various RTCs would agree to "athlete exchanges," e.g. swapping wrestlers for maybe a month or two at a time, to ensure their guys are getting different coaching perspectives and different training partners.  It would no doubt benefit both RTCs' athletes in the long run.  

I would never put an asterisk on a World Championship medal, but when comparing different eras of Gilman's life, something was a bit different at Worlds in 2021 and 2022.

He is, and always will be, a World Champ.  I am more impressed with his 2020 Olympic bronze run, than any of his other tournaments.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken