Steveson is NOT the GOAT & Pyles is dead wrong

[SocraTease]

You've goat to be kidding me!

Christian Pyles (on FLO) just argued that Gable Steveson might be (is) the GOAT.   Here's the video if you can access it:

https://www.flowrestling.org/events/10749208-2023-final-x-newark/videos?playing=10940686&limit=60

But the claim is dead wrong.   And the elevation of Steveson to the pantheon of the greatest American wrestlers is premature at best.  And, more likely, just irresponsible. 

However dominant he presently is in the US at 125K (or 285 pounds), he has just two NCAA titles (compare that with others) and two losses to Anthony Cassar.   He wrestled less than 70 matches in his NCAA career.  And while great on his feet, he is average (at best) in the top position.  He's not a pinner.

He has only wrestled 40-some matches in senior level freestyle and has lost 6 of them, including defeats to Gwiz (twice), Coon, Bradley, and Nelson.

While he is an Olympic champion (and did that in dramatic style), he has no other Senior level world championships and not even much of an international career.  Roughly 3/4's of his senior level matches have been in the US.   He hasn't wrestled guys like Zare (Iran), Petriashvilli, or Akgul (Turkey) on a regular basis and beaten them more than once.  (He hasn't wrestled Zare at all.)

Further, his Olympic win was literally a last second victory that might never have happened if the referee wouldn't have put both wrestlers quickly back on their feet.  In other words, this conversation would not be happening if it weren't for a relative contingency.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not disparaging G.S.  He is a great, talented and athletic wrestler who is dominant at his weight in the US and one of the top guys in the world.

But Pyles should not be forcing comparison to him with John Smith, Borroughs, Dake, Taylor, and so many others who have shown an ability to stay at the top for a very, very long time and win both National and (many!) International championships.

I submit Pyles is not just trying to be provocative (though he is) but that he is guilty of recency bias and dead wrong as well.   As Aristotle pointed out wisely (and roughly 2500 years ago), "One swallow [bird] does not a summer make" ... nor, we can add, does one Olympic title a GOAT make.   

If Steveson stays on the mat another 5 years or so, we can revisit this claim.

Pyles needs someone from UWW or even WWE (Gable himself?) to throw him down on the mat (against the ropes) and shake  some sense into him.   

.

Edited May 5, 2023 by SocraTease

[VakAttack]

GOAT is a subjective idea, unless you're going to do it purely by numbers, in which case there's no point in discussing anything; it's just math.

[mspart]

And that math doesn't add up.

mspart

[VakAttack]

19 minutes ago, mspart said:

And that math doesn't add up.

mspart

I would agree that nobody could argue that Steveson is the GOAT based on numbers.

[Mike Parrish]

Pyles is the dumbest person in wrestling and assuming anything that he says is wrong will usually result in you being correct. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

3 hours ago, VakAttack said:

GOAT is a subjective idea, unless you're going to do it purely by numbers, in which case there's no point in discussing anything; it's just math.

Did someone activate the bat signal?

[de4856]

Well obviously one Olympic Gold doesn’t make you the GOAT, but Gable is an exception wrestler, and appears to be at the top of his game. I am looking forward to watching him compete in the World’s this year and possibly the Olympics next year. And if he wins these events we can certainly continue to discuss his greatness. 

[El Luchador]

Gable took a year off and got better. I can only imagine how good I am after 30 years off. 

[MPhillips]

33 minutes ago, de4856 said:

I am looking forward to watching him compete in the World’s this year and possibly the Olympics next year. And if he wins these events we can certainly continue to discuss his greatness. 

But not his, 'goatness.'

[Hammerlock3]

pyles is a complete idiot. 

He has spent a decade getting worse at his job. 

[Cherkov]

So far he is a guy with 6 senior level losses ( albeit at a young age), an OG, and had dominant domestic tournaments. But there have been wrestlers who pinned their way to an Olympic title and no one remembers them. He needs to achieve so much more. 

[SocraTease]

26 minutes ago, Cherkov said:

So far he is a guy with 6 senior level losses ( albeit at a young age), an OG, and had dominant domestic tournaments. But there have been wrestlers who pinned their way to an Olympic title and no one remembers them. He needs to achieve so much more. 

Right. In an era of short attention spans and a lack of knowledge about or appreciation of history, it's important to remind some people that wrestling did not commence in 2010 or even 2000.   To cite one example, that other Gable (Dan), for whom Gable Steveson was named, earned an Olympic gold medal by winning 6 matches without giving up a single point (3 pins and 3 shutouts).  But, I guess, since it is not on Twitter or Tik Tok, it doesn't count.

Or John Smith: his career included four World gold medals, and two Olympic gold medals. At the Senior level, his international freestyle wrestling record was 100-5. He is the only American wrestler to ever win six consecutive World or Olympic championships as a competitor.

Edited May 6, 2023 by SocraTease

[DJT]

I’m assuming his GOAT designation was based on wrestling ability, not accomplishments.

I don’t necessarily agree with that, either, but watching him at senior nationals would leave anyone impressed. He appears to be at a higher level than he was 2 years ago, and I don’t think he’s reached his ceiling. 
 

That being said, if Steveson makes winning Worlds look as easy as Nationals, there’s no reason to not be able to consider him GOAT, even if he doesn’t have the same stack of medals as some others… so long as you’re willing to consider best>most accomplished. 

[Theo Brixton]

27 minutes ago, DJT said:

I’m assuming his GOAT designation was based on wrestling ability, not accomplishments.

I don’t necessarily agree with that, either, but watching him at senior nationals would leave anyone impressed. He appears to be at a higher level than he was 2 years ago, and I don’t think he’s reached his ceiling. 
 

That being said, if Steveson makes winning Worlds look as easy as Nationals, there’s no reason to not be able to consider him GOAT, even if he doesn’t have the same stack of medals as some others… so long as you’re willing to consider best>most accomplished. 

Agree with this sentiment. A limited total body of work isn't necessarily what should eliminate Steveson from consideration. He generally has the capacity to keep the match where is best and when that happens, he looks like a GOAT. However, the last time he was taken down he was turned like a top. Let's see how he looks at Worlds. If he is as dominant there as he was last week, the idea that he is the GOAT isn't as ridiculous as some think.

 

 

[WrestlingRasta]

Ageeed. I’d argue it was the greatest Olympic performance of all time. Matter if perspective. Where one may say he got lucky of an early whistle. Another may say short of a 30 second brain fart with zero par terre defense….he absolutely dominated the bracket…a tough bracket with lots of gold medals. The brain fart just set up one of the most dramatic finishes of all time. 

[Eagle26]

I don’t think CP even believes it. He’s obviously trying to do his job to get views. Stuff like this stirs up chatter. Just think of how much discussion we have off of Cinnabons ridiculous claims (that he also doesn’t believe). In Pyles defense, he did say it depends on if you define GOAT by best at their peak. If you do (which most don’t), then it’s so subjective, Gable would have a case. Like others have said though, recency bias plays a big role in that subjective discussion.

[Cherkov]

8 hours ago, Theo Brixton said:

Agree with this sentiment. A limited total body of work isn't necessarily what should eliminate Steveson from consideration. He generally has the capacity to keep the match where is best and when that happens, he looks like a GOAT. However, the last time he was taken down he was turned like a top. Let's see how he looks at Worlds. If he is as dominant there as he was last week, the idea that he is the GOAT isn't as ridiculous as some think.

 

 

I don't think only longevity matters, but there have been wrestlers like Yarygin who won 3 world/Olympic titles by pinning everyone. History will remember Gable as a young champion, but not dominant because of the 10-8 final. He'd have to win 5ish or 6ish titles by teching everyone to beat out longevity arguments and standout alone in dominance above the field imo ( I don't think anyone has done that in FS). 

 

Since he is not going to be going for medal counts or unbeaten streaks. 

[Mike Parrish]

24 minutes ago, Cherkov said:

I don't think only longevity matters, but there have been wrestlers like Yarygin who won 3 world/Olympic titles by pinning everyone. History will remember Gable as a young champion, but not dominant because of the 10-8 final. He'd have to win 5ish or 6ish titles by teching everyone to beat out longevity arguments and standout alone in dominance above the field imo ( I don't think anyone has done that in FS). 

 

Since he is not going to be going for medal counts or unbeaten streaks. 

Adeline Gray would like a word as would Tricia Naughton-Sanders

[Plasmodium]

6 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said:

Adeline Gray would like a word as would Tricia Naughton-Sanders

Neither of these three have a case for GOAT, although two of the stories are still being written.   Gray came up through youth at the same time as my kids.  She was tough.  And a quality person.   She absorbed some poor sportsmanship from opponent’s camps with dignity.  Prior to MS, she was state champ multiple times.   She was a middleweight and had some physical disadvantages as they got older and then she moved to Michigan and I lost track until her senior career.

[Mike Parrish]

Pyles is the Lt Steven Hauk of wrestling. 

[Theo Brixton]

1 hour ago, Cherkov said:

I don't think only longevity matters, but there have been wrestlers like Yarygin who won 3 world/Olympic titles by pinning everyone. History will remember Gable as a young champion, but not dominant because of the 10-8 final. He'd have to win 5ish or 6ish titles by teching everyone to beat out longevity arguments and standout alone in dominance above the field imo ( I don't think anyone has done that in FS). 

 

Since he is not going to be going for medal counts or unbeaten streaks. 

I thought it was understood that we're talking about the US MFS GOAT.

Longevity is relevant when considering the typical arc of a career where the most dominant years are often in the middle (or at least not at the beginning) of a long reign. Gable looks like a hoss straight out of the gate. Again, let's see what happens at Worlds this year. If he curb-stomps everyone, he gets special consideration because he passes the eye test with his style at heavyweight.