Bye to Final X / OTT Finals

[lu_alum]

I understand where 8+ years ago it made sense to give a bye to the finals for returning world medalists. Given Team USA’s improved performance over recent years, should the bye only be extended to returning world champs (or finalists)?

 

It is not out of the ordinary to see multiple US wrestlers in the UWW top ten rankings. This year also offers an interesting anomaly, in that Russia did not participate in the 2022 World Championships, perhaps over-inflating some of the byes.

 

 

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[MadMardigain]

9 hours ago, lu_alum said:

 

This year also offers an interesting anomaly, in that Russia did not participate in the 2022 World Championships, perhaps over-inflating some of the byes  

 

While the guys that placed were top world guys this definitely helped a few ensure a more favorable World draw so they got over the hump and now receive the Final X bye. 

Id be good with a system that just Bye’s the world medalist to the semi’s of whatever they decide the world trials tournament would be as the 1 seed. That still a solid reward but make you compete at least twice to prove you are still the guy. 

Edited April 29, 2023 by MadMardigain

[Antitroll2828]

10 hours ago, lu_alum said:

 

I understand where 8+ years ago it made sense to give a bye to the finals for returning world medalists. Given Team USA’s improved performance over recent years, should the bye only be extended to returning world champs (or finalists)?

 

It is not out of the ordinary to see multiple US wrestlers in the UWW top ten rankings. This year also offers an interesting anomaly, in that Russia did not participate in the 2022 World Championships, perhaps over-inflating some of the byes.

 

 

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Idk if you place in the world (which is one of ,if not the hardest of things to accomplish in all sports) then I think you deserve the bye , you earned it…it’s not like Russia where we are picking our team. The challengers still have a straight forward path to make the team 

[WrestlingRasta]

I love this selection process. I love that if you win a world medal, they have to come through you. I have no problem with that, that athlete has proven they are capable of winning a world medal. 
 

I also love the adjustments they made this year and the extreme importance of the national championship. The national champ will wrestle for the spot, guaranteed. To make the team you either have to win a medal, or win the national championship.  I think that’s beautiful. 

[Eagle26]

11 hours ago, lu_alum said:

 

I understand where 8+ years ago it made sense to give a bye to the finals for returning world medalists. Given Team USA’s improved performance over recent years, should the bye only be extended to returning world champs (or finalists)?

 

It is not out of the ordinary to see multiple US wrestlers in the UWW top ten rankings. This year also offers an interesting anomaly, in that Russia did not participate in the 2022 World Championships, perhaps over-inflating some of the byes.

 

 

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I’ve always been in the camp that the world medalists have earned that right. However, I think you bring up a fair point. Our depth right now is really good (in freestyle anyway). Last year, the men medaled in 8 out 10 weights. Winning a bronze medal doesn’t really make you an all-star on Team USA anymore. I would be fine with World champ gets a bye to Final X, and bronze or silver gets a bye to US open finals or something like that. It would make sense to have a distinction for world champions. 

[mspart]

It has been the case since I've followed that the US Nationals Champ was in the finals of the WTTs or OTTs.   Winner of the WTT tourney or OTT tourney would then face them in a best of 3.   That is still sort of the case.   That final is now called Final X.  But in the past, medallists did not automatically place into that finals spot.   Now that we have that, we have no WTT this year for 8 weights in MFS.  That competition is always a highlight, if not a redo of the US Nationals.   Gives another shot. 

We had a phenomenal year last year.   2021 we had 7 medalists so similar in nature.  We have done very well internationally these last few years, much better than the drought of the 2000s. 

I guess we'll see how it plays out in 2023. 

mspart

 

[nhs67]

I think something else is in order, yes...

Gold - Bye to Best of Three.

Medalist (including Gold from a different weight) - Bye to Semifinals if the Challenge Tournament.

[DJT]

I like what was done this year… it got a lot of big names to Senior Nationals… before, those who had already qualified for WTT didn’t bother to show up… many have a box in the garage full of stop signs, anyhow. There is really no point to re-wrestle the tournament at WTT, as it would only risk injuring a top athlete, even closer to Final X and/or Worlds.

Perhaps, giving a medalist a bye to the finals of Nationals* would be the way to go (Gold bye to Final X)… if they win, they’re in Final X.. if they lose, they can come back through WTT for another shot at Final X… can we please change the name of Final X already or has the name Final X grown on people?

Final X.
 

* It would also get the big names at Nationals… but not the biggest names.

Edited May 2, 2023 by DJT

[Sublime607]

All wrestlers that earn a spot in the final X should have to eliminate every single wrestler that qualified. It's really the only way to be sure.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Sublime607

[Jim L]

On 4/29/2023 at 9:14 AM, Antitroll2828 said:

Idk if you place in the world (which is one of ,if not the hardest of things to accomplish in all sports) then I think you deserve the bye , you earned it…it’s not like Russia where we are picking our team. The challengers still have a straight forward path to make the team 

For many weights, is harder to win US WTT than to win a medal at Worlds. Myles Amine might even agree with this.  It seems likely the J'Den Cox wll find this out as well.

[CHROMEBIRD]

On 4/29/2023 at 6:14 AM, Antitroll2828 said:

Idk if you place in the world (which is one of ,if not the hardest of things to accomplish in all sports) then I think you deserve the bye , you earned it…it’s not like Russia where we are picking our team. The challengers still have a straight forward path to make the team 

To me, there's a big gap between the finalists (Gold & Silver) and the Bronze medalists. I agree that winning a World medal is extremely tough, but the repechage system is a little more arbitrary and not the best way of determining the winners on the backside. Leaves your chances of Bronze in the hands of your frontside opponents (and your opponent's opponents) and luck of the draw. FILA did a good job of speeding up tournaments but at the cost of determining the true backside winner, IMO.

[mspart]

Well, FILA's first shot at it was worse.   Losers of the semifinals fight for Bronze.   Now at least losers to the finalists get another shot at Bronze.   That is much more fair. 

mspart

[CHROMEBIRD]

1 minute ago, mspart said:

Well, FILA's first shot at it was worse.   Losers of the semifinals fight for Bronze.   Now at least losers to the finalists get another shot at Bronze.   That is much more fair. 

mspart

Other way around, right? First go at the repechage system was that only losers to the finalists get to go for Bronze, now the losers from the quarters get to wrestle too?

[mspart]

No, when FILA went from double elimination to speed things up, all losers were out, single elimination.   Except for the semi finalists.   Only 3 semifinalists would get a medal.   Winners of the semifinal would go for gold, losers would go for bronze, and there was only one Bronze.    

Now the system is if you lose to a finalist, you go into a repechage in order of when you lost to try to fight for a Bronze.   The theory is that if you lost to the finalist, you might be better than losing to someone who lost to a non-finalist.   Each side of the bracket gets a Bronze. 

mspart

[98lberEating2Lunches]

If there's not a true 3rd place match at Final X, does USA Wrestling still require the 3rd place World team member to attend?  To make weight?

I only ask, because there's always the possibility of 1 or 2 not making weight. And if they don't, I could see even more complaints about golden tickets and limit challenge tournaments.

[peanut]

The current system of giving returning medalists byes to Final X is perfect. 

[mspart]

5 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

If there's not a true 3rd place match at Final X, does USA Wrestling still require the 3rd place World team member to attend?  To make weight?

I only ask, because there's always the possibility of 1 or 2 not making weight. And if they don't, I could see even more complaints about golden tickets and limit challenge tournaments.

I don't know but I would assume for those weights that are only FinalX, then #2 at US Nats is #3 on the World Team.   For those weights with WTTs, the #3 guy will be the one that takes 3rd, unless there is no consolation bracket. 

mspart